[Results] Prelims 2020 Over - Gearing for 2021 - ForumIAS

[Results] Prelims 2020 Over - Gearing for 2021


Even Indian Express is reporting similar news, but no mention regarding the source. Doubts will remain until UPSC comes out with official communication 


Notification is up on the website. 

Civil Service Preliminary Exam-2020 stands "deferred". Fresh dates will be notified on 20/05/2020 on assessment of prevailing situation. 

So not happening on 31st May, but deferred till when no one knows. UPSC keeps up the unpredictability factor alive. 馃ぃ

@Admgenalanezh Point A makes much sense. If they delay the interviews and results accordingly, there might be a clash between prelims and its results. On the top of that FC will be even more delayed and so will be the joinings. It will be an absolute mess, IMO. 

Reverting back to August schedule, as of the past years, makes it simple, clear and reasonable for everyone. Abb jo ho, hume manzoor. 馃ぃ

End of July and beginning of August seems the most probable as of now. Although depending on decision regarding interviews and Covid-19 situation. 
Kya pata 28 June ko hi ho jaye. The way things are opening up and relaxations are being given. If UPSC sees opportunity during times of pandemic. 馃ぃ

Exactly what UPSC had announced on May 04, that they will review the situation on May 20 and dates will be notified in "DUE COURSE OF TIME".

As they are going to draw up an entirely fresh calender for all the exams, maybe we can expect the date of Prelims keeping in mind the pending ones. It's going to be a long haul from now on. 


Everything said, UPSC shall take multiple factors into consideration while weighing in on dates for July or August or even later. 

1. Capability and willingness of district administrations all across the country to hold an exam of such magnitude. Most authorities in urban areas will have their plates full till atleast end of June - July 

2. Safety and feasibility of students movement from their homes to cities like Delhi and also on the day of exam. IIT JEE and CBSE has now allowed change of centres, to avoid unnecessary movement. UPSC may go that way. 

3. Logistics for arranging an exam of such a large scale and following social distancing guidelines. CBSE is planning for 5 times more centres and similar is the situation with NEET. Doing that for 10 lakh UPSC candidates will be a real challenge. Along with the centres, equally greater number of invigilators and officials will be required  

4. Developing and uncertain situation regarding increase in cases lately (Delhi reporting 1k+ and Maharashtra 2.5k+ on consecutive days ) and prediction of peak in late June - July. UPSC will be in a fix while deciding dates in such uncertain situation

5. But not the least, UPSC, as a constitutional body, will take into account interest and welfare of every section of candidates. 

Being UPSC aspirants, we need to understand the overall situation of the country rather than basing our judgement on narrow limited consideration. Rest, woh UPSC hai, kuch bhi kar sakti hai. 

Heard that some schools are being asked to Prepare for the exam in October. Anyone else has the news?

Where does this come from now? Sahi game chal raha hai. 馃ぃ



I feel there is a possibility that UPSC might defer it for another month to come out with the dates. 

Having a fictional date in late August and not able to conduct the exam then will be more detrimental than to adopt the sound policy of wait and watch that UPSC has smartly done till now. 

Sapiens have always been right, sigh 馃ぃ

@goldberry regarding Forum's CA class, i can only see Prelims CA on their website. Is there a separate Mains CA course? Could you please share the link. 

Guys need a bit of help :-

1. I want to know if there is any source for all the solved Previous Year Prelims questions. Atleast last 20-24 yrs (except for the Disha Publication wala book)

2.  How many total number of tests were there in Forum's Prelims test series 2020 ? 35 test or 45 tests ? And all the tests contained 50 questions ?

3. Between Forum IAS's Prelims 2020 test series and GS Score's Prelims 2020 test series, which one would you recommend and why?

4. For covering ancient history anybody referring to Tamil Nadu School Books of Class 11 ? if Yes, are you studying the new editions or the old ones?

5. for Culture part...apart from Introduction to Fine Arts (NCERT)...what other source are you referring to ? Nitin Singhania's book is extremely vast

Kinly help

Can help regarding point 1 and 5.

1. There is PYQ along with solutions, by New Vishal Publication. Just google New Vishals Prelims PYQ. 

5. Try Nitin Singhania hand written notes, quite comprehensive and not excessively lengthy. Plus keep track of art and culture issues in news. 



@Homo Neanderthalensis mains ka seperate ata hai prelims ke baad....its cost is around 15k...it will come after 4th October i guess...

Makes sense. Thanks bro. 鉁


Everything well and good, just that the virus doesn't like arrogance. Let's just pray that UPSC comes up with some foolproof arrangements to handle such a large crowd on a single day.

Else a few of us may end up paying very dearly. 

Every such instance is just a story and every infection and death, just a statistic, until it hits you. Let's hope that people and authorities understand this, before dismissing the threat of Covid. 

Everything said and done, there will be people on either side of the spectrum of argument. But there is  definitely no iota of doubt, that several legal hurdles will be faced if UPSC decides to go forward with October 04 in current prevailing situation. 

This is an exam for constitutional posts, by a constitutional body at a pan India level. UPSC will be aware that even few grievances from those wrongly disadvantaged has the potential to throw off the entire procedure into a legal entanglement. UPSC knows this very well, and therefore had made the elaborate arrangements for students transport (including air fares). Similarly, UPSC was quick in deferring the Prelims in May (before other institutions did) 

UPSC has distinguished and well experienced members at the helm who will keep interests of all the sections of students in mind and take a rational decision. Recruitment exams have not much justification to be conducted hurriedly, unlike the JEE/NEET entrance exams.  

Padhte rehna hai, baki dekha jaye toh zindagi moh maya hi hai :D


Utilitarianism is all rosy and good, until you are the one coming under the train. 

Just when they delivered judgement allowing KCET to be conducted. Although doesn't impact if exams will happen on time or not.


Whatever is happening in Karnataka CET or UGC, shouldn't be seen as an indication regarding the conduct of the UPSC exams (whether maybe positive or negative).

UPSC is a Constitutional body and has acted in an extremely responsible and mature manner till now, whether be it the postponing the Prelims quite early, or the extreme caution in ensuring the smooth conduct of interviews. A situation like delayed postponement of JEE, NEET only after SC intervention or absolute mess like KCET, has not been seen from UPSC till now nor it is expected. 

Similarly UPSC CSE exams are of entirely different nature from these entrance exams, both in utility and process. Selections and recruitment to constitutional posts have to follow fairness and due process in a far greater way and will be prone to more legal challenges if not done accordingly. This is not the same as the KCET exams. UPSC understands that and it will ensure the ethos of utmost fairness for the aspirants. 

All said and done, I should not taken as suggesting a further postponement or otherwise. My intention was to point out that, UPSC will conduct the exams when the situation is relatively safer and without prejudicing the numerous aspirants, be it October, November or January. Till then, the uncertainty will be albatross around the neck for some people and a silver lining in the dark clouds for others. Cheers!!!



@Dead Man Yes, that can be an indication regarding Govt's willingness for CSE Prelims, But still then there are certain differentiating factors that needs to be noted 

1. JEE Mains is an online based exam, with students coming in multiple shifts over multiple days to NTA designated centres, which located in multiple cities in a state and exceeds USPC centres by a considerable margin 

2. NEET Is a offline pen paper based exam. But the NEET centres are located, similar to JEE, in multiple cities. All state capitals along with several main towns have NEET centres. That isn't case with UPSC centres, for they are designated only in State capitals with a couple of other cities only. Fox example: In my state, Odisha, NEET is conducted in atleast 7-10 cities, whereas UPSC Prelims which is organized only in 2 cities. People have to travel upto 200-300 kms, in some cases. Logically, although accepting my ignorance, it must be similar in other states too. 

Before deciding in favour of conducting exams, UPSC will have to take cognizance of the transport issues, logistical viability, availability of district administration and most importantly, the willingness of each and every State Government prone to politics.
I am not suggesting that it is impossible or that it will have to be postponed indefinitely. But yes, it will be much more challenging and very different from conducting engineering and medical entrance examinations. Things will have far more clarity by the end of this month, I presume. 

@Thanos_ thanks, i am pretty pathetic at facts. Worried about how to produce them in GS papers :D


Although i, too, am guilty of speculating and there is no intention of curbing opinions and free speech of the forum members, I have come to believe that it is a fruitless and futile endeavour to think about the dates. Furthermore, it takes a negative toll on our minds, which I have become a victim of. Even created a doubt in my mind, on choosing this life of uncertainties.

There will be opinions, facts, beliefs and reasoned arguments from both the sides, but the dates for conducting the exams is in control of neither faction. So let's just wait it out, without speculating on the dates and adding to our already existing heap of worries  


"You will never know until it hits you. Till then every death is just a news and every infection, just a statistic"

- Homo Neanderthalensis

Probably got extinct due to these conservative thoughts 馃ぃ


I don't know whether it makes sense or not, all the exams being pushed for at the moment are either college leaving exams or college entrance exams. 

None of the state govt. have gone ahead with recruitment exams. If I am not mistaken, UP PCS mains too got postponed. Similar situation with MP PCS and Odisha PCS. So maybe govt has other priorities in mind at the moment for some reason. 

Not drawing any conclusions, just an observation. 

Mask pehen ke exam dene ki practice kar lo ab 馃槄

Bas PPE kit mangwa na hai 馃ぃ


Though i have been a witness to this group but have refrained from active participation. After much thought i am expressing my opinion which one may or may not concur with. 

1) First of all everyone knows this is once is a lifetime pandemic which requires extraordinary response - economic, social etc. One may expect the government to be humane, empathetic and likewise aspirants who are writing this exam to also take the same approach. But this is not the case. For the present regime, it seems that people are just statistics and whoever lives or dies is not their concern. They want normalisation at any cost and that too quickly. Seeing this, i wont expect them to defer this exam unless the situation becomes so grave where we have drastic increase in mortality - say somewhere around 1500 deaths each day. That is also not a guarantee and if they want they will surely go ahead and take this exam 

2) Coming to the judiciary. Those who are blaming the judiciary for everything should know that the era where the Supreme Court was supposed to be harbinger of social justice has appeared and gone. The apex court has shown through its various judgements that it would not encroach the executive policy making domain. But yes at the same time it is also abandoning its core function of the protector of fundamental rights. Right to health is clearly a concern at this point and it should have at least not ignored the NEET aspirants plea to further increase centres in states like Bihar where there are only 2 centres. Not everyone has equal resources, we should always think of the last man standing. Transportation is clearly an issue and courts should have at least directed the examination conducting authority to look into this. For JEE i have no objections as the exam is spread through a number of days. But for NEET, even the NTA is adamant and is not allowing centres to be set up in gulf countries. 

3) Coming to the our hallowed body, the UPSC. While other testing agencies from CLAT to NTA have made an effort to increase examination centres and even created new centres in different cities, the UPSC decide to maintain status quo and allow change of centres only. Presently there are no guidelines for COVID affected candidates who want to appear for exam, whether they will be allowed or not. The SOP's are also not there as was given by AIIMS for NEET exam. We have seen just generalist measures like maintain personal hygiene and social distancing in their NDA admit card guidelines.  It seems that the commission is escaping its primary responsibility of conducting the exam in a free and fair environment. I hope that the issues will be addressed so that everyone is granted a fair chance in this prestigious examination

As everyone says "we'll have to live with it" 馃ぃ

do you think if jee, neet are deferred(chances of which are very less) , it will have a bearing on upsc prelims?

Visham Paristhitiyon me kuch bhi ho sakta hai bhai. 馃ぃ



禄 show previous quotes禄 show previous quotes

irrespective of the SOP i personally think that the discretion lies with the supervisor in the exam hall.....just like they check the type of watch wore by aspirants to determine if the watch is digital or analog..... of course the two situations cannot be compared but i think you got my point....

True....but what an irony...we ourselves cannot follow SOPs, how is everyone so confident about the SOPs

During UP - PCS prelims in dec 2019 at my centre they weren't even allowing anyone a wrist watch. I had to convince them that analog watches are okay, only digital watches are not allowed. In the end they allowed. But yes you are right depends upon the centre, most are lenient.

Happened with me during UPSC 2019 Prelims. The invigilator couldn't distinguish between a digital and an analog watch. This happened during the exam. Ended up creating a scene and me losing a good 5-10 mins of the 2 hours.

This would be scene regarding masks and face shields with many, this year, for sure. And god forbid, if the invigilator tries to be dumb and not allow the N95 mask, then the SOPs and Heaven be with us :D

Are you guys preparing for neet or jee?


At the same time, feels like a parallel universe. 馃ぃ



@vikkyanthro28607 There is no guarantee that you or me will be alive tomorrow too my friend . Life is fragile and unpredictable.  The only thing that will protect is rational hope. 

I think you will be familiar of the Russian roulette (else kindly Google it (thanks for googling)) . The scenario now is like this CORONA is a game of optional biased russian roulette . Optional as in if you take utmost precaution u will have less turns with the pistol which has only one loaded bullet. Conducting exam in the time of CORONA is like using a Gatling gun with just couple of empty slots in the magazine.

Vaccination (according to popular scientific which was cautious at the starting about the vaccination has turned largely positive now.
We don't even have to wait for the vaccination  the middle path would be to have a downward curve

of corona virus  bringing it down to atlest sub 10k cases per day all over India .

Conducting exam now is and will be a blood bath . 

We'll bring in Russian vaccine for Russian roulette. 馃ぃ

Slightly off the topic, any one attempted the Demo Test of Vision Abhyaas, the one with 50 questions? What would be a good score in that?  
What should have been a good score in this Vision Abhyaas? Seems like everyone is scoring too high!! I feel like giving up at this moment :(
Can someone pls tell abt dis abhyas test? Wasn't it supposed to happen on 6th sept?

They had provided an additional test. Rest happens as scheduled. 

@rafael it's not just for free tests. Even paid online tests have scores that are very high. 
For ex - In insights test series, there are people scoring 200/200. Some 5-10 students 190+ 

That's the problem in online tests. How do we assess our rank here then?

I guess marks would be a good indicator if we have given the test honestly. Forum members and veterans can opine what would be a good score in this Abyaash. Like@hashtag2020 has said 80-85. 



Can someone pls tell abt dis abhyas test? Wasn't it supposed to happen on 6th sept?

They had provided an additional test. Rest happens as scheduled. 

How do we access this additional test?

You need to register for Abhyaas. Then you can find it on the platform. Else it should be on TG in a few days, I guess. 

anyone attempted abhyaas? found this one  a bit easier than earlier mocks...however posting answers after 3 days defeats the purpose of  a mock..

Attempted this one. For me, it felt difficult and a bit vague in the first round of solving. Thereafter in the second round, many questions got solved after pondering upon them. I felt, the paper demanded a lot of connections, logic and elimination. 

Anyone gave Abhyaas 3 today? How was it?

It was relatively easier that 1 and 2. Felt that there were less number of vague questions in comparison to 1 and 2. Once could solve the difficult ones, using logic at many places.  

Most important part is that, it seems COVID+ve students won't be allowed to appear for the exam. Any clarity on that? 


@Oatmeal How will they differentiate between who is COVID+ or who is having simple flu or fever? Or will they not allow anyone with a body temperature above 99?

That's the Pandora Box of discretion going to be opened on 04th. 

Diverting a bit from the discussion and risking of sounding a bit stupid, any suggestions from seniors regarding what would be the best pen for prelims OMR filling? 

@Patootie you are a sweetheart. Thanks for all those morning doses of motivation. :) 

Getting 106 according to the Toppers answer key. Could I be through? There doesn't seem to be much discrepancies in the keys this time, except 4-5 questions.  


Section 7: Aadharnecessaryfor receiving subsidies, benefits for which expenditure is incurred from CFI etc.

Aadharwas made mandatoryfor insurance products in accordance with PMLA Rules. This was in 2017. However due toSC Judgment+ recentamendment in 2019,Aadhar is not mandatory.

I believe that the wordings of Section 7 imply an 'enabling effect' rather than a 'mandatory effect'. The provided clause also says that other identification documents can be used for availing the benefits. 

Legally speaking, the interpretation of Section 7 would be, it enables the Govt to use Aadhar as identification for giving benefits linked to CFI. It doesn't make Aadhar 'necessary' for the benefits. Rest, everything depends on karta-dharta UPSC.  



@Homo NeanderthalensisFrom my understanding, other documents can be used if Aadhar has not been assigned. Read last 4 lines of Section 7.

Yes, what you are saying is also true. It's just open to a lot of interpretations. Although I feel, what you are saying is what UPSC will go with. Because on the face of it, from the heading clause, it seems 'necessary' option is correct. 

Bhai koi doubtful nahin hai question, har question upsc general sense, common way mein answer leta hai... Naa ki complex bana kar hum logon ki tarah, bas apna sahi karne mein lage hein log. Sirf ek doubtful hai jo ki, 6 months vala and that too language, aur yeh baat drishti vaale head ne kahi and political science vaali mam ne. Baaki apna apna jod lo. Jo sahi hai. Desh vaale mein 1,2 and rukmadevi mein 2,3 . Aur science vaalo mein general way mein answers, all of these hi hein. 

Toh bhai yeh Critical Tiger Habitat ka kya scene hai? Abb kahin se Sundarban sunn ne ko aa raha hai. 

Time to leave the thread and the world. Har din 2-3 number kam ho rahe hain. November 10 tak kahin negative me chala na jaye :( 


I have doubts in 3-4 questions

1) factors affecting rice price --In my opinion Government trading should not b there as There is no such thing(FCI do not have any profit loss account, MSP is not trading, APEDA is  involved in basmati but  not direct trade but promotion of export etc)

2)non financial debt waala question I have marked Treasury bills only(it purely depends on what UPSC wants to ask so pure luck factor here ,lets see)

3) Growth rate in rural employment has decreased (in my opinion this isn't correct as post liberalization growth in employment has been seen across india(india is still 70-80% rural and without rural job growth overall job growth isn't possible,jobs shifted from agri to non agri)

4) Minister waala question I have marked 1 only though it seems it is wrong 

5)There is no minimum no of days parliament is required to meet in a year(All coaching rely on IE article and no other sources) ---Atleast twice in a year itself mean MPs will have to come 2 days???

Completely agreeing with you on rural economy, almost completely on minimum parliament and partially on rice and non financial debt. 

In rice u r correct. Govt trading is due to price fluctuation not other way around. Government trade to stabilize the price. But coaching key due to cognitive bias towards all of these.

Bhai, this makes sense. If you take the logic of coaching keys, then Open Market Sale Scheme will be exactly opposite and counter productive to what it is aiming for.  


The only true controversial questions

1. Non financial debt. Well the definition of this is problematic af. Most webpages have this written as "issuer" of debt, in which case 3 only. Reading it in context of ibc its 3 only. 

2. Minister ->6 months (this to me should be D, but UPSC has used the word "can", and there's no limiting terms like all or any, so can't rub off the notion that UPSC treats that as a general statement)

3. Desher katha. This will ultimately depend on what UPSC considers was deuskars context. Chances are towards 1n2 though.

Don't think rest are doubtful or anything. Rakhmabai is settled at 2n3 and preamble should be D as SC clearly stated that the objectives of preamble are a part of basic structure, and secularism has been kept as a reason for using 356 in bommai. Also, FRs do reflect objectives of the preamble. Thus while obviously the idea of liberty equality doesn't have a legal sanction associated, you can obviously generate a legal sanction wrt the FR that guarantees u the same.

Blockchain, AI aren't really controversial. We shouldn't take every question that some other institution has marked different as controversial, coz then unacadrmys jatin verma has lisa pathfinder as answer, which we should accept is wrong.

Apart from these there will be added impact of cancellation of the gandhi irwin question. That's most probably 2 marks gone for all, which means cutoff will drop by 2 marks, in all probability.

What's the consensus on Blockchain and AI then? I guess UPSC will go for a generalized reading in case of AI. 

129.34 in Paper 1, 80.83 in Paper 2 -2019 scores. I feel silly that this time my score is in 90s.

If that's the trend with a sizeable number of people, then there maybe some surprises waiting this year. 

122 last year 
This year 100-105

These words are like nectar for those on the borderline, nervous nineties. I am hoping that the trend actually holds and translates into something in the cutoffs. Fingers crossed! 

Anyways you're through. All the best for mains and eventually making it to the final list this time. :)

@MrJ phir wahi age ki baat? Kithni baar samjhana hain, there is a condition of both Age (2nd point of Article 173) and Voter (3rd point of Article 173  which is parliamentary qualifications under RPA, 1951). In fact, there was a previous year UPSC question asked in 2017 on the same context. Try to attempt it by applying the ridiculous age criteria. 
Last word: If you're a voter, you need not directly be eligible to become a MP/MLA. But to become MP/MLA, you have to be a voter.

@Percival bhai, hum sabke mind me cognitive bias hai. We won't accept the other's point as correct until UPSC comes out with its own key. So it's a thankless effort (and that too with no effective benefit) to prove one's answer and convince the other person about its correctness. Koi nahin manega, likh ke lelo

And regarding the minister question, being an law grad, I believe the option is a gray area and can be interpreted both way. From a generalist PoV, A is correct because there is no such bar regarding age under 164(4). But from a extremely legal PoV, A might be wrong as some courts have interpreted it and further might qualify as a 'fraud on Constitution' (Such thing has happened in DC Wadhwa case, where multiple ordinances were promulgated using absence of specific restraint on such). Now it's for UPSC to decide if it goes for a simple generalist view or a specific legalistic view.

"Laws are never black or white and the gray is where the lawyers exist"

@Homo Neanderthalensis generally in such questions upsc goes with a general view....



Prelims me coaching valon ki har baar band baj jati hai..is baar bhi bajegi lagta hai.

Upsc saying rajendra nagar nd mukharji nagar main gandh mat machao . Go get a job or do a master degree and prepare fr exam simultaniously . For this exam emotional intelligence more required than general intelligence . I dnt knw upsc saying this or nt but that shd be norm .

I think now it's even more difficult to prepare with jobs. Look at prelims questions, it now requires at least 3 month of dedicated preparation so that we don't hover around cut off and prepare for mains with peace.

Same with mains, questions last year were technical, to the point, either u know or u don't.

Those who clear the exam with job do so inspite of the job not because of the job.

I am a victim of job so I can relate it. People do job while preparing not because it gives them satisfaction but because they can't afford to prepare without job.

I am a victim of this exactly. When I was in job, I thought it would be better to prepare without a job as I was not being able to give the requisite amount of time to the preparation process. And now when I am out of the job, it feels that I would have been more confident while writing the exam if I were in a job.  

Sab milakar ek baat hai, "Grass is always greener on the other side" and we won't ever be satisfied with what we have in the present. Manusya ajeeb prani hai. 馃ぃ


Jiska accha gaya hai woh bolega cutoff zyada jayega, jiska accha nahin gaya woh bolega cutoff will reduce. The person scoring high wants to believe that he/she is in a good position and that others are out of the race. The person scoring low will want to believe that cutoff will be low and hence he/she will make it through. And then each will try to find out and put forward arguments to prove their beliefs. 

Everyone has deep entrenched biases, but sadly won't matter a penny at the end. 

Why no one talks about how to handle the failure, everyone is talking about clearing it.

You handle it by living through it. By accepting it wholeheartedly. There are no two ways about it. I've wondered why people celebrate the winners so much and have no time for those who don't make it. It sucks, but that is simply how it is. 

For some of us, if its our first failure, the dominant emotion would be one of sadness and then sudden motivation. This idea will probably fill your mind that you've hit a low, and that suddenly, you are going to change your life around.

I went through that the first time I failed. I was foolish enough to trust it and went about life as usual with no introspection. I studied hard for a month or two. And then, I didn't at all. For months on end. There is a long gap between the results of one prelims and the next prelims. Sudden motivation is the biggest piece of bullshit most of us can believe in.

Sure enough, I failed the second prelims. Again by the same margin of one question. Now this one was truly devastating. It sent me on a downward spiral towards rock bottom. The funny thing about rock bottom is that you never know when you hit it. You keep going down and down and down. Self doubt, insecurity, hiding yourself from even your wellwishers, thinking how you were only unlucky and doomed to always fail, you get the gist.

There's no easy way out of this spiral. I wish I could tell you there was. It took me real time and real effort. It meant being truly honest with myself, and accepting my own inadequacies. It meant learning humility. It meant showing the courage to actually make myself get through each and every single day. It meant showing the will to get up and fight when my own inability to get myself to work towards my goals knocked me down over and over again. Even when I tried, I failed still many at times. Trying again felt so much like a burden that I was on the verge of letting this all go. Yet, I kept trying to meet my daily goals despite consistent failure. 

Till now, there has not been a single day since Prelims 2018 which has gone completely according to my plan. However, it doesn't affect me anymore. As long as you are willing to try every single day, irrespective of the results, you will have something to cherish. This exam is not the end of the world. Focus on yourself. Introspect for the answers you seek. Try to do the things you truly want to do in life. Life does not have to stop for this exam. You are not a roll number. Just keep on trying to raise yourself up. If you can do that, you'll have handled failure. 

We were sorely missing your posts. Can't thank you enough for this one@Patootie 

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