what is your opinion of satyam jain UNDERSTAND UPSC ?

you keep creating your own discussions and keep commenting on it and live in your world.

@TwoFace if you know me, you would not have asked such questions. the title itself is offputting. if you have to ask questions, you ask proper questions. this community will give you answers. if you ask stupid questions, find answers on youtube.

I am not aware of "some people" who have said this. Few months ago there was a video about burning test series. And I think I had addressed questions related to using test series. So not aware of this development.

Handwriting classes ?

Can you tell me

1. Did you ever see a newspaper ad for handwriting class?

2. Did you see a YouTube video about handwriting class?

3. Did you see such classes being organised every year ?

4. How did you know about these classes?

That's the whole point! It wasn't "sold" on YouTube or through Ads to a large number of people. Truth is that it has been conducted two times in past five years.

First time there was a student who said Sir if I am able to improve my speed even by 10% , then I know I will become ias. I said what do you plan? He said there is a teacher in Chandigarh. I am planning to go there for the session. But it will be great if you can call him as many people have this problem. So we got the teacher.

What should I say to him? He had already done 2 mains , and had practiced enough. Writing vlis a technical thing. The person who badly wants IAS wants it. If slow writing is someone's problem, it is a big problem for him and maybe his only big problem.

Just like if csat is your problem, but not mine, it is a big thing for you, but not for me. I may think you are a fool to spend money and time in doing a course, but in the end you have to do something about it. Or simply waste 6 attempts!

That student arranged the teacher. His fees was 5000/student. Forum is a pvt Ltd company with GST liability .If we collect fee it becomes 5900 which we have to pay to govt.

Also, there was another candidate who had this problem and had gone to Chandigarh and made improvements. I had a personal testimonial, so the decision was easier.

I would be fooling a student of I said - practice more and write 4 more mains to a student who has already written two mgps and 2 mains, but can't complete paper. can't say practice more as he has already done that.

That person called the teacher, we arranged a session, he improved his writing speed ( and aesthetics ) to some extent , got IPS and then got IAS in next attempt - Himachal cadre. That person is no other than choti singh.

You have to understand that writing speed and aesthetics is not just a matter of practice, but is a technical thing - how you hold your pen and how you do the strokes. If it's not your problem, it doesn't matter to you, for someone for whom this is a problem, he has to solve it or go home.

We dont do writing classes, but every 2-3 years, enough number of people accumulate who have bad writing speed, and come down in groups. Once 15-20 students are there, we arrange for the class!!

And regarding the fee it is a teacher's prerogative to fix his fee structure. Where was this course sold on YouTube or on a generic platform with lots of village students ? It was for people with 1-2 mains who knew they had this problem and they had to solve it or exhaust attempts and save 6000!

As to wheather it works or not is difficult to measure immediately ! Also it may work for some and may not work for others!

I go by what I believe in. And there are people who have high stakes with good career which they have left for upsc. You want to tell him that exhaust attempts, but don't spend on a course ?? 

Sorry to say, but this you can say in youtube, but I don't get brownie points for looking like messiah with free stuff. Forum has earned its position by delivering results, not by attracting students in name of free education.

Not interested in who is making what video. Past 2 months hv been so hectic, hv not watched even a reel, leave alone a video.

Every 15 minutes wasted means 1 student denied one on one session. Let's use time more wisely.

Besides, our strategy has been to allow and to some extent let anti forum content thrive. This helps in segregation of students, and we get good quality of students. Not weak resolved students who will drop at the first sight of trouble.

Pls speak to nivedita ( number shared in interview group ) , for online / offline slots.

May not be able to answer questions on this thread anymore.

@TwoFace I am surprised by the fact that you expect a selected candidate to jump and shout about which coaching he has taken when the news of selection has just come and media has their mic thrust in the face of candidates. I am glad that Garima said she did not take any coaching publicly. Especially at the time of news of her immediate selection and too much media around.

You see when a person is selected, his success has several factors. The very fact that a person has been able to afford sitting and preparing for the exam is a great parental support who have not only provided financial support but also insulated the candidate from wider societal criticism.

When I was interviewing Garima, I asked her three times where she was coming from. She was an online student and a diligent one. I was surprised that she was preparing all throughout in online mode from Buxr. Last year, I think we had two very bright people who were preparing in all earnest from remote towns - Garima from Arrah / Buxar ( dont remember, and I confuse between those two places since childhood ) and Vaishnai from Gonda, UP . And they were fantastic candidates so much so that I had a great rest-of-the day feeling - feeling gaga over how programs of forums are reaching out to the right people.

Imagine if she said she was doing some modules of forumias academy from delhi, and every person listening to her in her neighbourhood  would join programs such as MGP or CA, it would neither work out for us , nor for the student. The mgp is a demanding program where there is a huge onus on the candidate to study. If some one has written 18 tests it means he has done 54 hours of test writing and if one were to study 5 hours for every 1 hour of test writing , that makes it 250+ hours , which means he or she will make progress. Its not that just by doing it you clear IAS. The effort that you put will make a lot of difference. The efforts that you put in understanding the feedback, discussing with mentors and making amends / changes - they all go a long way in making small changes that help you succeed over a period of time.

Remember that a selected candidate has a social responsibility. In a country that is vastly poor, he should not be promoting a private coaching in public.

Unlike  JEE or NEET topper, the UPSC topper has a much wider respect and more responsibility.

And it is not that topper tell lies. Most students make open disclosures in their blogs and their telegram channels etc. Also, they do send dozens of college juniors to classes they attended, or any academic help they took.

We get few hundred students every year from reference of old students, and we are happy about it. I even get phone calls from students of 2016 , 2014 and its a good feeling that they remember us!

@ravisingh2633 

If you have an Interview call, focus on it. These are distractions.

Few years ago, somebody wrote a lot of bad things about me. Some of my students were not happy - some of them were also forum members.

I could sense that they were a lot disturbed about it, and as for Minal, who was a little fragile in those days ( later got rank 35 and IAS later ) , I felt she would lose focus and flunk in the exam.

Other was Targareyen on the forum. ( The GoT was quite popular back then, hence the name ). I thought if they get caught in some BS they would lose an attempt. Time is crucial, and a wise strategic use of your time before the interview is very important.

Going through your post , I felt like sharing this. You can see how after 1 year of their original comment, they kept themselves away from all such things and were able to get IAS and IPS respectively.

And this 

You can see them below

@ray Quite mature thoughts! How *old* are you? 😃

Why is mains answer checking structurally flawed according to you?

I will try to bring some perspective into the ongoing discussion, and will try to address smce concerns.

"Hello Sir

Structurally flawed because Firstly it doesn't pay that well

Anyone who is intelligent & hardworking enough to know the nuances of this exam will invariably move upto a teaching role, which pays really well. Such a person will not have enough time to check the copies of even deserving student and track their progress. Even if such a person decides to check the copies of deserving candidates. It is very difficult to sort out the deserving from the non deserving as the non deserving candidates may turn into deserving and vice versa 

Also there are numerous students who are diligent and hardworking but have very poor writing skills. How do you put them in the category of non deserving? 

Hence in my opinion, we need a good team of evaluators who are known to be diligent and who take their role very seriously and not just another Rs 800."

How well a job pays is a very subjective thing. How much do you think is paid by the Commission to evaluators of actual Mains? And if that remuneration is not as good, what do you think will be the motivation of professors evaluating upsc copies at a much less incentives? Then that means, upsc actual evaluation is also flawed, since unless they are paid an X amount they wont do their job properly.

"Hence in my opinion, we need a good team of evaluators who are known to be diligent and who take their role very seriously and not just another Rs 800. Their evaluation must build/erode their brand just like teaching. But then why would a reputed institute allow this brand building? 

Also, all of this becomes difficult given the volume of such copies as such wonderful mentors are few. Hence, the only solution is costlier evaluations by worthy mentors to reduce the volume and incentivise these mentors. "

Look, the word 'good evaluator' is a very wide term. Just like the word aspirant. There are people who have quit their jobs and are studying day and night for the exam, writing prelims and mains is an aspirant. And for every such aspirant there are 500 or so people who call themselves aspirants - who are just job seekers - and they need *any* govt job, not just IAS. ( There is a difference between wanting ANY govt job vs ending up with ANY govt job- the latter has at least prepared intensively for Civils ) . Which is why even an institute that is training for constable, sub - inspector, clerks etc also has the name "IAS" coaching in its name.

It has been made out that evaluators are mentally dumb, money - hungry people . No they are not only that. I can tell about Forum that at least there are at least 100 core evaluators who have been with Forum since several years, they have been students - done MGP very well and taken at least 2 attempts to clear the exam ( the experience matters ) - they are people who have extra time, and are serving, and they are very passionate about upsc even after 5-7 years into their jobs. After essay paper they will call and say - Sir this time paper was very innovative .... difficult. There are people where both the spouses have been with us for several years - both have gotten what they wanted and help with evaluation in their spare time. I have never heard from these people - they do not do evaluation full time, they do it in free time and weekends - and they never discuss remuneration stuff. They are settled and they do a good job. And they comprise nearly 30-35% of the evaluators.

When a student is not happy with his evaluation, his / her copy is sent to a senior evaluator and he/ she examines it. In essay we have evaluators who have cleared both IAS and IFS and want to do some work in free time. 

But that is not even important. What is important that evaluation should make sense to the student. And many a times, it may not make sense. That is because it is very difficult to communicate all that you want to say in limited space - even if you wanted to!

Which is why we have mentorship sessions. Where someone can discuss their copy with a mentor, who can tell them areas to improve upon, if any.

I had a bright student last year - I think her name was some NaXXXX. Now when she went through that video which@TwoFace  has posted, she lost all trust and comfidence. And she became very acidic and acerbic towards the evaluator. The evaluator was a well accomplished person, having cleared this exam twice. ( We have an elaborate feedback system )

She was doing well, but deep down I know that she got caught in the noise, and now her two years are wasted. And she will probably come back to us after 2 years.

Mentorship provides a second level of review to students who may not fully understand the evaluation. 

And people have done that.

I was meeting this candidate who was from Jaipur and was with Forum. So I asked her Forum doesnt have a center in jaipur, why didnt you do VSN ? She had secured Rank 120 and I think that year is is the highest rank from her category. You can watch me Interview her below

She said, Sir, I had heard good things about Forum and I got good mentor support from forum in online mode.. In my first attempt, I didnt speak to any mentor, but in second attempt, I followed my mentor closely

This is her mentorship record and her copies record

( Next someone will make video on mentors. For the record, her mentor was one Mr A, who is a senior officer now, serving a Pvt Secretary to Finance Min of the coutry .

1. Very difficult to monitor their checking due to the volume and the subjectivity 

2. Usually evaluators take the safe approach : Award them average marks. Why? (THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE IN MY OPINION) 

If they give high marks, they will have to face higher scrutiny and higher accountability given that such copies may make into topper copies. 

Also if they give low marks, they will again have to face higher scrutiny of the student. Low marks means more suggestions especially in terms of the language, the structure AND not the content. They'll have to guide the students to improve. "

The purpose of any evaluation is to be as objective as possible. This means that no matter who the evaluator is, what is his mood, you should be getting that kind of marks.

At Forum, the marking scheme is on the tighter side, and we generally say that you should get 20 marks more than what you are getting in Forum.

Evaluators do not award average marks. We have evaluation guidelines where there is a cap on the highest marks that may be given - and that is 60%

You see in humanities, you have accept that all answers are correct answers, but some answers are more correct than the others - unless close ended questions are asked.

For example,

Briefly mention the alignment of major mountain ranges of the world and explain their impact on local weather conditions, with examples. (2021 )

This is a close ended question and you either know or you do not know the answer. if you know nothing, you cannot write the answer. You will be awarded zero if if you dont know the answer and make it up ( You may get 1 marks for just making a diagram - and that will depend on evaluator from what I have seen )

So whether it is upsc or wheather it is any private coaching evaluation, you wont get marks unless you write the specific answer.

But a question like - "Indian diaspora has scaled new heights in the West. Describe its economic and political benefits for India."is more open ended. So you can make up an answer and write on the basis of what you know. You will definitely see an averaging tendency in such questions. 

A brilliant answer may fetch as high as 60% and a poor answer, but having written things substantially may fetch a 20-25%.

Humanities is not like. " Write down the 3 laws of Newton." Where you get a 10/10 if you write it and get 0 if you do not.

And in humanities, for the above question also someone who writes adding dimensions like

- Intro - who was  newton

- three laws 

- other theories by newton

- criticism by heisenberg and theory of relativity  

he will end up scoring way better. When I was studying at Tata Institute of Social Sciences , we would often meet Profs who would award us 55% marks on a great assignment, and 35% marks in a poorly written one. And it was a premier institute. ( Those days results from Soth were better than North - check out 2009-2011 era.)

It is also the case that in UPSC the prof may award 70-80-90% marks in some questions. But then it is completly dicretion of the Prof - which cannot be done in a simulated test series - and serves no purpose!

** Why average marks may be given? Reasoning 2 ***

Imagine that I am very happy with a certain candidate in GS - IV. Let us assume a student has written exactly what I wanted, and I taught in the class. And if the student has answered all questions  well - which happens, and I award her 70-90% marks in each question, the candidate ends up getting 160-170 in the paper!

Now this may happen in UPSC also!

But UPSC has two tools

1) It may have strict marking or lenient marking for some subjects in some years

2) It will do scaling.

So those people who make videos saying that UPSC gives such marks, you see the scores given by UPSC itself - which does not have a pattern!

IN GS 3 for the past 3 years not many have crossed 99 while in GS 4 in past 3 years people have gotten 147 also! 

And just take the results from CSE 2016- 2018-2019. Noone was getting marks in Ethics, and GS 3 everyone got 110+

So we would rather not have a situation where someone is having 160 score in forum mock test and is getting 88 in actual civils! It is plain stupid!

"We all know that in thecase of Mains preparation, it is the Evaluator and not teacher on whom everything depends. He has the potential to transform a person into an IAS with his pen if he points out the exact issues"

You overestimate answer writing practice and guidance and underestimate content. You see with the explosion in blogging and thanks to a forum also - a lot of things which were known only to interview appearing students - that if you write so , so and so , you get an Interview call .

If you see candidates these days - there are only 1000 seats, and you have at least 2000-3000 students who write really well. 

5 Years back, if you just completed the paper, you would get a call and probably make it to the list. But that itself was a task. 

But things changed a lot since 2018-2019 itself. Today, majority of the people complete the paper - the fight for top ranks is not there - it has become a lot content game. I am saying this because forum since the beginning attracted a very good crowd ( it was made for interview discussion ) . So when we get case like this

... we know that people like him have written and cleared the exam 3-4 times. They know how to do answer writing. Then as mentors how do we help him get IAS? There is not much you can tell him in answer writing.

And all these people are those who have read hindu for 5 years and made notes. On that content and with those writing skills every year you can get a 100-200 rank, but not a top rank. For top rank , you will need content.

( This kid got rank 7 after he came to forum , and yes we worked on content )

And since you have been asking questions - what about this candidate - so Mr Kartik Brahmabhatt as shown in picture above is the typical case of a person coming to Delhi, but sitting in his room and doing what he could have done in his room. With MGP at least he may have written a few hundred answers , and read some very good answers. And even in the absence of evaluation or mentorship, if someone write those many answers and read good content, he would become something.

And its sad because he could not cut the noise on the internet. I will probably meet him after 2 years.

and as far as paid misguidance videos are there, this picture is worth a thousand words.

At least one evaluator left a remark to the then future rank 1 that "you have very less scope of improvement. try to maintain consistency across papers."

Short answer : It impacts our results.

I am going to write a whole essay on this as to why I would make that video in response someday. And no, none of my colleagues or faculty supported my idea of making that video.  But for the paucity of time, I will answer this shortly here..

Layman Thinking - It must be impacting their admissions/ revenue / sales

Short Answer.. Because it impacts the performance, career of our students and impacts the selections from the Institute.

You see Civils is a tiresome, sometimes long preparation journey. And there are so many uncertainties. In this, you will need to have a plan and will have to follow it rigorously,/ religiously without an element of doubt. You will need to believe in what you are doing. And if somone comes and disturbs you - you are gone. That whole year is gone.

MGP is a self study program - the onus of the hard work is on the student. You will need a lot of will power, commitment, sincerity and discipline to do MGP. Its not like everyone can do it or everyone can extract value from it.

When you make such video and create doubts in the minds of students, what happens is that students who have enrolled for the program will pay the fees, but wont write the tests. Most people are already fragile in their minds. Even the good ones.

And there will be difference in the preparation and performance of students who have spent, lets say 30-70 hours in test writing ( which would mean 300-400 hours of studying at least ), and someone who has not.

When you tell people that you should not write answers, just because the evaluator may give you average marks, or he is a single cellular organism with no brains, incapable of existing as a human - you end up telling people not to apply their minds to good questions, to great answers, to some great , well written copies, and some very meaningful inputs given by a mentor on your copies. He simply loses one attempt. 

Not everyone has the financial and mental capacity to make up for that lost attempt. And I can tell you that while admissions increased, students who were not in Delhi - not connected to a core crowd of serious aspirants - lost all confidence and did not write tests - wasting one complete year.

I am ashamed to say that I , individually did not do enough to fight it - because I allowed the negativity to thrive - convinced that it will filter the crowd to Forum - and thats what we really want.

But it does waste the money, time, career and years of hundreds of students who start doubting the programs they have paid for - and then they do not pursue it as they would have normally done.

Not a single day goes when I dont get a mail such as above.

I am not saying candidates who write tests will clear the civils 100%. But at least they will make progress. And maybe we can catch them when they progress and help them reach the destination. But how can you help , when the person has not made progress in weeks, months and years.

Look, we did not get Rank 1 in ForumIAS when we had thousands of students. We only had 300 students, and we got ranks 1,3,5,7,10 from less than 300 students. And each we knew personally, I am in touch with each one of them.

Today, I want top Ranks in CSE , because we did something to aid their preparation  - not because we have thousands of students - so obviously someone will get selected. We want to have a high % contribution in the selection of the student.

That is my mission, and that is my reason. 

Will write more on this as and when I get time

@ravisingh2633 pls do not put things out of context.  I do not mean what I dont say , and dont say what I don't mean. Will not be able to answer any further questions on this thread.

@HarveySpecter ! Check your inbox!

Though I feel that you have plenty of time, and you are probably not writing the exam this year, I will adress some of your questions for the very last time. I suggest you focus on the exam, and do not vitiate the atmosphere here.

...1.. It may be the case that the said student may have taken some guidance from multiple places. He was doing things at  forum pretty well - at least that what I felt before and after his result., And everyone is not Kunal. He is a bureaucrat's kid. Parent is in All India Service , has had good education- he knows how to separate garbage from gyan. he was a pretty diligent student who wrote ( I think ) every single test at Forum. He was doing MGP year long, and he extracted max value out of it. sharing his copy and mentor session records. We do not expect anymore credit from him than what he has already given. 

..2.. When I said it impacts our students and results, I do not mean the numbers. The number of student getting selected from forum will always be more than half and nearly 2/3rd of all selected students - excluding the Interview program. That ground work and deep work that is needed for that has been done.

Look, Civils prep is a demanding thing. What separates people who clear it in one go, vs those who do not - everything said and done - in the end it will come down to clarity. People who clear know what is to be done - they do limited things - they do it well and they clear it... But while you are doing it, you need to have faith in what you are doing. Its like mountain climbing, knowing that if you fall  - the rope / harness shall save you. 

Imagine your self climbing a steep cliff and someone tells you the rope that you are hanging from will break. It isnt strong. Now you can neither go up nor go down. That is how people get stuck.

So when people use or brand name, and spread disinformation, what they do is that - the weakly resolved student - who is already having a tough time - is confused. That student does not fully trust Youtube videos either, but now he thinks writing tests wont work - and he does not.  In short he is confused. The minute he is confused, he is gone. That attempt is wasted. People with better guidance, or those who can cut the social media noise, they end up doing well, but not everyone can do that.

I had a girl from Jharkhand mail to me after watching youtube videos, and I knew her 2023 attempt is gone. ( She is actually gone , she didnt write any tests, nor came for interview, and isnt in the final list ). It was her first Mains. Not everyone can financially afford to prepare for this exam again and again.

Am saying this because when I was seeing copies of students before Mains, I saw mostly all old students copies - so much so that first time people writing Mains were not writing tests only! Why - because they trusted the youtube campaigns ? No, because they now were confused what to do.

One of the ways to fail someone in UPSC is to make him doubt his strategy. 

While students joined MGP, they did not write tests - to the point that when we looked for good copies, we were not getting too may new people writing tests.

And when mock interviews happened, I was seeing ALL the same people whom I had taken mocks last year and last to last year. While this happens every year - the absence of a large number of fresh candidates was alarming!

And while last year 1000+ students registered with forum for interview guidance, this time it was 1900+ students!! Most of the were all students from last year!

As a mentor it is nostalgic to meet old people, and it feels good, but it is also exciting to meet new people and new people were simply too less in number.

Also in October- December so many people started writing MGP tests * after the mains** that I was alarmed. Fir pata chala ki Mains de diya but did not write the test, after mains they are writing tests for nxt year.

This was numercially so visible that during mains we did not have any copy checking delays - which happens because thousands of people suddenly like to write the tests at the last moment. And after Mains copies were being checked in 7-10 days because mgp 2023 students were writing mgp testsafterthe mains was over, as they felt lack of practice and feedback. But 1 year is defintely gone.

Thousands of our students - and may be more - were completely misled by such controversial videos - and I think someone should raise a voice against such irresponsible youtubers who build an audience on this basis.

You see the final list - last year most of rank 1,2,3,4,5 were people who were writing their first mains ( barring Rank 3, who changed optional from Geog to Anthro). This year you have 3 people in Top 10 who were already selected in IPS. This year out of the 90 folks from NPA who wrote mains, 60+ got selected again - and about 25+ ( will have to verify data , but this is what I have right now ) are improving their ranks!! Such a high number never happened before !! - just because newer people withdrew from exam prep!!

In fact newer candidates completely gave way to older candidates this time so much so that most people who called this year after results were all the same kids who called last year! Times of India for the first time instead of announcing results - wrote a story on repeaters!!

( It was good to see some last year students who got IAS and thus release from the cycle, and my life's best testimonial was from an old student only

... Please note that why I invested so much time in fighting such things is because I genuinely feel that someone writing tests , and reading mgp answers will beat the average crowd - and upsc is a very conventional exam where if you do conventional preparation you clear it - sticking to the old rules of preparation.

And If I am wrong, I will change how we ask students to prepare. We wont do something that does not help people to succeed.

and that is why I compared it to Ocean Gate. The man lead bunch of billionaires to death not because of lack of resources, but because they were misled by one person.

I am glad at least some people were saved. 

thanks for sharing this. You have helped me save effort of "substantiating with data". 

See the students here . Most of these ( but not all ) are last year Interview students with few exceptions. All students who appeared for interview last year were "auto-enrolled" in the mains test series and gs course by this institute without paying fees. i am not going into that debate whether it is right or wrong.  my point is this is what happened this year - newer people were confused to the point that they simply didnt write tests !! All last year students have dominated the final list this time - disproportionately!

... and lastly coaching institutes sharing topper numbers with each other.. so that every institute has the number of toppers - bhai i have not heard this logic  before. What I think is happening is that we may think and overthink a lot of things.

And because we have social media - and we have the highest amount of freedom of speech in human history - and also the highest amount of time at our disposal ever available in human history  ( no more carry drinking water from the well , no more hunting - foraging ) we dump all our thoughts - things that should otherwise be restricted to thoughts and not words.

And on youtube you have many such people to consume such conspiracy theories - they are not even genuine aspirants .

What happened with forum is that we made  whatsapp group of interview students and all 5 rankholders were there. everyone could see the phone number of others. It may have happened that phone numbers may have gotten shared from there. This was not intentional.

My suggestion to you is - unless you are not an agent yourself, dont watch too much crime patrol. Dont make something simple and benign into a conspiracy theory. And at least dont do it on forum. On YT you have people who are very gullible. The audience is much more mature here. Enough number of Mains appeared, interview appeared and finally selected people are here.. so dont do such things..

If anyone who is a nerd here ( loves details and is the curious kinds ) this is the candidate. I was so pained because this kid had lost both parents. Misguidance is misguidance. irrespective of paid or free.

I have answered your question in the last part. I won't give a feedback to a candidate 2 days before an exam, where he has no implementation bandwidth. Till exam has not come, you need guidance, but On the day of the exam, you need confidence and faith. Lot of it.

https://forumias.com/blog/11-suggestions-for-getting-started-for-mains-2024/