Bogus Marketing + Self Promotion Thread - ForumIAS
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Bogus Marketing + Self Promotion Thread

Creating this thread for bogus marketing , self-promotion, sharing success stories and little victories! Will add small success stories and a little self bragging of self and forumias as a whole.

jack_Sparrow,DMand22 otherslike this
20.2k views

41 comments

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Thank you so much for your reply@Neyawn :) 

Ilive in Vijayawada, AP. So I could never drop in your office. I will definitely see how to reach you with my work. 

Thanks again… 


Regarding embarrassment, I am so sorry. I thought you would be happy to hear that someone from South India also follows many of your courses. :) 

And about only mentoring toppers. Actually

This year I thought of doing something different.

Finding people who had failed, given up, with like 3-4-5 attempts with zero succes in Prelims

I got bunch of such kids, made them study.

Here are the results.


 




I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,Oshoand6 otherslike this
4.5k views

I will get back on this thread over weekend as I have more time. Just few things for clarification

1. You overestimate me :-) I have just been doing what I enjoy. Not saying this to sound humble or cool. You know me because you have been on forum. College folks and 80% people writing Prelims do not know of forum. You could say that after 2-3 attempts, most people hear of forum.

2. I am not too centred about ethics. I am more like stupid things wont help in the long run. Every question is not a question of ethics. Its more like being smart or stupid. And when you are doing things that have a commercial angle, you ought not be stupid , lest hundred of people sink with you ( i mean employees/ team members ). Look, the english medium crowd was always the crowd which knew better, which was not bought by fancy advertising etc. That has however changed. At least in this part of the country - the ORN/ Karol Bagh area, people English medium crowd - which until 10 years ago was more aware - has shown to be equally befooled by fake advertising  - which was only a Hindi medium coaching problem.

What I think is  -  a lot of people are doing things which is not right, but I am not so concerned about what is right and what is wrong - but more so about what is good in the long run. It is merely co-incidental that good business practices help in the long run.

3. This community is the biggest check against stupid things that Forum may want to do. To build a coaching with a community front face was challenging, but has helped build strong pillars that support forum in the long run.

4. As forum scales, I see investors not at all interested in results, success and outcome. They want to invest in a company that can generate revenue without results. They are more likely to find a - say a Srishti IAS better avenue to invest as its business operations is not based on learning outcomes or results. I see investors all keen on lowering the quality of courses to cater to a few million users, without which they do not value it. When it comes to Civils, if your curriculum is not as per exam, your students will end up clearing some other exam, but not upsc.

Will share some more thoughts over weekends.


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,venkataharishand6 otherslike this
6k views

Kuchh aur karne se nahi hoga!


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,venkataharishand4 otherslike this
4.3k views

Neyawnsaid

» show previous quotes» show previous quotes

No, actually I am thinking about something. Generally every year what forum does is have a single strategy session / anseer writing session so that there is no confusion. Also we don't want to interview or showcase too much students who have secured ranks but are still writing the exam, given that they are still aspirants, and one gotta be in aspirant mode till one is writing the exam.


What I am seeing however is that vjrm is holding hundreds of sessions, some of them even by people who are taking next attempt. And most of the people this year are not even their students. On one hand there is an academic side which says, don't expose your students too much as long as they are writing the exam again. They gotta improve rank / score and this sonehow jinx it. There is a commercial side which says ask every selected candidate to do some talk / webinar etc. even if he is writing the exam again.. or else you will lose market share due to poor visibility and marketing. Just thinking. Any thoughts?

I have realised not promoting or marketing self/  product (which you believe is better) is equivalent to allowing a substandard or below average product or less hardworking people to move ahead of you 


This also amounts to denying the consumers a better product. Hence marketing is absolutely ethical. Rather not marketing your better product is a fraud with the consumers. 


P.S: I am not endorsing XYZ coaching as a better/poor product 


Gaitonde’s Den: https://forumias.com/post/detail/Gaitondes-Den-1727638216
Neyawn,DMand4 otherslike this
7.3k views

In my first attempt, I was unaware of Forum IAS. And some coaching taught foundation class till April along with mains answer writing tests. 

It cost me an attempt. After that I randomly saw one of your video on YouTube wherein you explained the concept that- June to November/December is for mains and from December, preparation should shift from mains to prelims.


It was really helpful and gave a new direction. Especially for people who are preparing from remote locations and are not in Delhi, right guidance is needed. Because in UPSC preparation, many things are at stake in your life.


Your one session(read right guidance) can bring a change in direction for someone's preparation. Many people burn the midnight oil but the light gets flickered due to uncertainty and doubt on oneself. 

PS- being a music lover, I wanna give an analogy- these days many sub standard singers get famous coz of remaking songs. BUT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHO THE OG KUMAR SANU IS.

Sorry, if there is some spelling mistake. Typed it on my mobile phone.



@Neyawn

Neyawn,DMand4 otherslike this
7.2k views

Commenting here just so that those who have so passionately given some inputs here know that what they have said has not gone unnoticed.

There are two books i have felt have been very useful in building an organisation - One if Peter Theil's from Zero to One and second is what got you here won't get you there.

The challenges which one may face is beyond imagination from a common person's perspective. What is happening right now is that big players have purchased / leased nearby buildings. There are no buildings available. There is a physical barrier to running tests and classes. Most programs where a lot of energy goes such as awfg or sfg which is good for the student , may not have profitability to continue doing it. And if we are half hearted about something, it wont work out.



I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

dalpha,DMand4 otherslike this
5.4k views
Hi Neyawn, I enjoy reading your posts and always wait to see them in my inbox. 

I have the following query... I see that you have personally mentored many toppers in person. But I assumed that while you were budding in this industry, you might have had that time to handhold them (eg: Minal Karanwal mam, etc) in their prelims and mains stage. 

I also assumed that you only mentor students in their interview stage currently due to paucity of your time. 

I consider myself unfortunate to know you when you have already reached the summit in this industry (any serious aspirant or a veteran knows or speaks about MGP, CA classes, Ethics classes, etc- I mentioned this because in one video you said that you felt bad when your old teacher visited you and told you that he took time to locate your institute from metro and you lost sleep over it because you felt that you couldn't survive in this industry and thought of advertising more or so... trust me, many of us know you and follow you and your institute very seriously), so may be I can't avail your personal mentorship. 

But just today when I read your post on Medha Mam, I am getting to figure out that you might have helped few aspirants in their initial stages of prep (during post 2020). You are mentioning that you could comprehend today's toppers as potential rankers in their nascent stage itself. 

So now Icouldn't wait to choose a place where I can write the same to you (found that you saw and mentioned about one of @Twoface questions), so I hope you get to see my question to you too...

How can I reach you to get "that" personal mentorship??? (ofcourse not expecting handholding every day, but once in a while every 3 months is a good enough support we can have from an experienced mentor like you. Because you can just check a grain or 2 and decide if the rice is cooked unlike inexperienced many)

You may not have time for someone like me (because there are many like me)... But may be you are missing some potential topper too... 
P.s. I am a hard core believer of the following quote... 
"Not everyone can become a great artist but a great artist can come from anywhere". 

I am humbly writing the above message...You said confidence is all that is needed after a point of time, so I wanted to sound like a person with self- belief in his/her own self. 

If you reach till here, thank you so much. Your blessings would help me, but I wish I could meet you and get your guidance as well...if it's not possible, I will surely meet you in my interview preparation. 

Neyawn,dalphaand3 otherslike this
3.4k views

Londonsaid

@Neyawn you haven’t shared any story yet!

No, actually I am thinking about something. Generally every year what forum does is have a single strategy session / anseer writing session so that there is no confusion. Also we don't want to interview or showcase too much students who have secured ranks but are still writing the exam, given that they are still aspirants, and one gotta be in aspirant mode till one is writing the exam.


What I am seeing however is that vjrm is holding hundreds of sessions, some of them even by people who are taking next attempt. And most of the people this year are not even their students. On one hand there is an academic side which says, don't expose your students too much as long as they are writing the exam again. They gotta improve rank / score and this sonehow jinx it. There is a commercial side which says ask every selected candidate to do some talk / webinar etc. even if he is writing the exam again.. or else you will lose market share due to poor visibility and marketing. Just thinking. Any thoughts?


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,sonderand3 otherslike this
9.2k views
» show previous quotes

I have realised not promoting or marketing self/  product (which you believe is better) is equivalent to allowing a substandard or below average product or less hardworking people to move ahead of you 


This also amounts to denying the consumers a better product. Hence marketing is absolutely ethical. Rather not marketing your better product is a fraud with the consumers. 


P.S: I am not endorsing XYZ coaching as a better/poor product 

So I was reading this book from zero to one by Peter Thiel . The book hit me hard in one aspect which said that most tech founders / people from tech background think that if the product is good they do not need marketing and distribution channels and they dont focus on it. They always want to work in stealth mode which sometimes may be detrimental to the company. So yeah, giving a thought to that.

However when I look at people who are marketing themselves well, I only see everyone in edTech Space begin with "education should be free" ( Mind you, this is not basic education or primary education they are talking about. They are talking about competitive exam which affects a small minority of the society ) then have billionaire plans. Worse, they use investors money to subsidise their products with the hope that someday they will recover the costs after becoming a monopoly and when that day never comes they exit or go silent.

Also because they plan to teach millions , one edTech founder I met told me their classes are subscribed by 1,20,000 students. I said any selections . They are clear - selections will come another program. Now to cater to the 1,20,000 students the course quality is brought down such that it wont help you clear the exam. 

It will however fix your basic school level knowledge base, if you didn study well in school.


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,GaneshGaitondeand3 otherslike this
8.6k views

Neyawnsaid

» show previous quotes» show previous quotes

So I was reading this book from zero to one by Peter Thiel . The book hit me hard in one aspect which said that most tech founders / people from tech background think that if the product is good they do not need marketing and distribution channels and they dont focus on it. They always want to work in stealth mode which sometimes may be detrimental to the company. So yeah, giving a thought to that.

However when I look at people who are marketing themselves well, I only see everyone in edTech Space begin with "education should be free" ( Mind you, this is not basic education or primary education they are talking about. They are talking about competitive exam which affects a small minority of the society ) then have billionaire plans. Worse, they use investors money to subsidise their products with the hope that someday they will recover the costs after becoming a monopoly and when that day never comes they exit or go silent.

Also because they plan to teach millions , one edTech founder I met told me their classes are subscribed by 1,20,000 students. I said any selections . They are clear - selections will come another program. Now to cater to the 1,20,000 students the course quality is brought down such that it wont help you clear the exam. 

It will however fix your basic school level knowledge base, if you didn study well in school.

Great insights 


I can draw an analogy from my legal profession. You must have seen many lawyers who have amplified their practice just by using social media. Some of them have been able create a system within 3-4 years where they are earning in lacs/crore despite being first generation lawyers. 


Now, some of these lawyers are at best : AVERAGE. I see much better and competent lawyers working hard in isolation believing that they will make it big SOMEHOW (I don't know how) and that their HARDWORK WILL PAY OFF SOMEDAY. 


Well it doesn't work that way. The BCI doesn't allow a lawyer to advertise. I don't know how else can they generate clients.

Further, Relationships including monetary ones are based on trust. Any person before buying or consuming usually makes a quick Google search. A good presence and track record gives them the trust and the confidence to put money on you. 


I also believe a good & credible presence also somehow indicates a level of sincerity and professionalism. 

Hence marketing self & our products is sin qua non if we want to be successful in a field such as law that is heavily titled in favour of the elite. 


One of my lawyer friend recently met a female client who was Sexually harassed but didn't have a lawyer for 2 years. She could afford to pay Rs 5,000 per hearing (which is good for a young lawyer who has just started practice ) . Yet, these competent and young lawyers are NOT VISIBLE. This not only allowed the likes of Sibbals &. Singhvis to charge in crores per hearing but also denied the people (like the lady who was Sexually harassed) proper justice. 


Who is to be blamed? It is these young & competent lawyers who should be blamed as they didn't make themselves accessible, visible and available to the needy. 


I think this holds true for all the fields. Who is to be blamed when you allow average people to move ahead of you in life despite having all the resources? 



Gaitonde’s Den: https://forumias.com/post/detail/Gaitondes-Den-1727638216
Neyawn,dalphaand2 otherslike this
6.8k views
Kindly look at the quality of Simulator test especially CSAT.  It seems they are just copied and pasted from some other sources. I can tell you one source from where questions were copied. It's SPIPA, Gujrat. 
VoiceNote,bismarkkand1 otherslike this
9.2k views

In my first attempt, I was unaware of Forum IAS. And some coaching taught foundation class till April along with mains answer writing tests. 

It cost me an attempt. After that I randomly saw one of your video on YouTube wherein you explained the concept that- June to November/December is for mains and from December, preparation should shift from mains to prelims.


It was really helpful and gave a new direction. Especially for people who are preparing from remote locations and are not in Delhi, right guidance is needed. Because in UPSC preparation, many things are at stake in your life.


Your one session(read right guidance) can bring a change in direction for someone's preparation. Many people burn the midnight oil but the light gets flickered due to uncertainty and doubt on oneself. 

PS- being a music lover, I wanna give an analogy- these days many sub standard singers get famous coz of remaking songs. BUT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW WHO THE OG KUMAR SANU IS.

Sorry, if there is some spelling mistake. Typed it on my mobile phone.



@Neyawn

Thank you. Thats too kind of you!


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,Zaryaand1 otherslike this
8.6k views

Neyawnsaid

I will get back on this thread over weekend as I have more time. Just few things for clarification

1. You overestimate me :-) I have just been doing what I enjoy. Not saying this to sound humble or cool. You know me because you have been on forum. College folks and 80% people writing Prelims do not know of forum. You could say that after 2-3 attempts, most people hear of forum.

2. I am not too centred about ethics. I am more like stupid things wont help in the long run. Every question is not a question of ethics. Its more like being smart or stupid. And when you are doing things that have a commercial angle, you ought not be stupid , lest hundred of people sink with you ( i mean employees/ team members ). Look, the english medium crowd was always the crowd which knew better, which was not bought by fancy advertising etc. That has however changed. At least in this part of the country - the ORN/ Karol Bagh area, people English medium crowd - which until 10 years ago was more aware - has shown to be equally befooled by fake advertising  - which was only a Hindi medium coaching problem.

What I think is  -  a lot of people are doing things which is not right, but I am not so concerned about what is right and what is wrong - but more so about what is good in the long run. It is merely co-incidental that good business practices help in the long run.

3. This community is the biggest check against stupid things that Forum may want to do. To build a coaching with a community front face was challenging, but has helped build strong pillars that support forum in the long run.

4. As forum scales, I see investors not at all interested in results, success and outcome. They want to invest in a company that can generate revenue without results. They are more likely to find a - say a Srishti IAS better avenue to invest as its business operations is not based on learning outcomes or results. I see investors all keen on lowering the quality of courses to cater to a few million users, without which they do not value it. When it comes to Civils, if your curriculum is not as per exam, your students will end up clearing some other exam, but not upsc.

Will share some more thoughts over weekends.

Absolutely, will come back over the weekend for more insights. 


Adding a few more pointers.


1) Lol, no. I'm definitely not overestimating you. Whatever I'm saying is based on what I've seen. And i still stand by those thoughts because what you've done in the last 5-6 years is highly difficult to achieve. And this is just the beginning, 30 years down the lane, considering this trajectory, things will be what they have to be. 


2) Not just forum, but many people who are either in college or fresh graduates, do not know other major institutes also. The problem again, is of marketing and outreach. I've hardly seen any innovative approach with respect to this among the coaching institutes. 

A campus ambassador programme, free virtual workshops, tie ups with colleges can easily solve this in just 2-3 years of time. Any college would love to tie up with forum or any big brand because providing access to preparation for civil services is a matter of reputation for colleges. Setting up a civil services prep club and having a dedicated faculty advisor/coordinator will ensure that there is consistent registrations every year. Once this is done, the issue of awareness in college folks will be a thing of the past. 

Also, such an exercise is relatively not capital intensive, you'll just need a dedicated team to focus exclusively on the outreach and awareness aspect. 


3) I highly doubt that a person with your experience and talent can do anything stupid to sink the ship. I see it as more of a problem in navigating the dilemmas. Some times our personal set of beliefs pull us back, so it's just a matter of introspection and devising a clear cut algorithm of what to do in such situations, so that the business always stays in the healthy curve. 

4) True, I agree with you, building a business with a community will provide checks and balances and is also very difficult. But once that is done, if you look at any business that has a growth based on community participation, there are hardly any disappointments. So, the community thing is highly rewarding in the long run.


5) Investors will always want better returns. That's the only thing they care about. How we do it, is left to us. With or without selections, with or without high quality courses is really not their headache. 

It's just that the coaching institutes lower the quality of the courses, in the pressure of meeting investor targets - kind of an easy approach to the problem. I don't think any investor would tell a founder to tweak around with courses "as long as the numbers and the revenue keep flowing". 

If today you think that forum is not as investible as say, srishti, it's because of the numbers. If forum can generate those numbers, while maintaining the quality of the courses, then there would be bee-line for investments.


And i definitely, without any doubt can say that forum can reach those numbers with the same high quality content with innovative approaches in marketing and thinking beyond the delhi crowd. (For example, I've stopped marketing for my initiative long ago, whatever happens is through organic searches and through content generated long ago by influencer marketing. With almost zero marketing in the last 1 year, people from the remotest parts like nagaland, mizoram, arunachal and other rural areas are sitting at their home and ordering products from my website.)


There are millions of aspirants waiting for trustable initiatives to come near them, atleast virtually, so that they can also prepare at the best of their capabilities. Unfortunately, those millions of aspirants don't really have a choice to make. Whatever they have is clearly not catering their aspirations and that's why they end up searching for more and more initiatives. 


I've always wondered what stops all the major coaching brands to increase their presence in colleges. The solution is definitely an open secret, it's tech + innovative marketing, but why it hasn't been executed yet, hopefully i get an answer to this one day. 


I genuinely feel that if any coaching brand wants to be the next 1000 crore "revenue" brand, without any VC backing, then going the college route and establishing strong presence in the academic institutions, across thousands of them in the country, is the way forward. The first mover will obviously have the largest advantage to succeed here. Time and pace at which it happens is of critical importance. 


All this aside, as a common member of this platform, it's a privelege to discuss on these issues on a public forum. The talks that usually happen in the board rooms are out here for everyone to look at and share their thoughts on it. Full credit to you. And thank you again for this thread. 

Dionysus,venkataharishand1 otherslike this
4.3k views

HA0408said

There are few things you may have missed. People like you who come very close to cut off, but just miss it generally have one issue. And that is of resilience. Soe for instance someone getting 30 marks in Prelims is easy to train to clear the prelims ( obviously because he hasnt studies, and one he does, he clears! ), but people within 5-7 marks gap may have too many varied reasons for their inability to clear it.

One of them is resilience issues. Which means when the pressure comes, they crumble. So every time you have to worry about such candidates because they may have studied and all, but will underperform under pressure.

And let those failures accumulate for a few years and you have major issues of baggage with them. In short, they fail because they failed.

There are few things I will suggest you

One is to do mocks in coaching institutes in offline mode. It is not the paper that matters , but sitting with people around and being outside your comfort zone. 

I had a bright kid, predictably not clearing the prelims thihs year. because the person was too smart. So if you ask them did you write sims? They will say yes but at home. Did you write abhyas, they will says , yes but i did it at home?

WHy?

You cant handle the pressure of sitting with hundreds others and being jduged in two hours. You want to sit on bed, put a pillow and put a laptop on top of it, and whole family is providing auxiliary services like food and water ( which will not be the case in actual exam ). YOu have to step out of that. Write tests offline. Attend open mocks. One paid test series and one from market.

Also take a look at SFG. If thats been done, you need some serious push, and may explore FRC 5.

People around you study so hard, they may sure you perform.


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,PaulAtreides
1.9k views
Thank you. I like to believe with some innovation David can still beat Goliath.

I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

venkataharish,TheProbe
5.2k views

So from December 2023 we were busy working with a bunch of people who had NEVER cleared Prelims before, to make them them clear Prelims.

So we got about 100 people to join us. It was not an easy task. There were lot of hiccups. 

Everyone said you dont need to do this. You already have good candidates and toppers. Even senior faculty thought I would lose focus from good students to work with studens who have not performed in past 3-4 and some in past 6-7 years.

We expected 30-40% people to clear the exam, and we reached close. The game is that the ones who did not - will clear it next year- ( about 20-30% ) . But they should not lose faith in themselves.

Here is what happened.



I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,Mango_Person
3.9k views

Neyawnsaid

» show previous quotes

I tried, but I could not pronounce your username. If you are in Delhi or in GGN, you can come down with bunch of your copies.

You do not really need a lot of inputs, but only the one that can set you up. Thats all.

Some students maintain a mail chain with me. It goes on for like 50 messages. This year for prelims I have 40 people with 30+ messages long chain. Just keeping in touch.

If you are busy studying , writing tests, sometimes that is all.

And when there is a moment of doubt, reach out to me.

Regarding Medha, she was in my essay classes , probably ethics too, the first batch, I dont remember. But when we met she remembered some of the things and examples I said in the class.

Thank you so much for your reply@Neyawn :) 

Ilive in Vijayawada, AP. So I could never drop in your office. I will definitely see how to reach you with my work. 

Thanks again… 


Regarding embarrassment, I am so sorry. I thought you would be happy to hear that someone from South India also follows many of your courses. :) 

DM,
3.2k views

@jack_SparrowSir, Please look into the messaging inbox system.

LuckyKatt,
8.5k views

@Neyawn sir is there any way to meet you. Cleared prelims, need your guidance for mains 

AT KB center 4PM Friday


I am no knight. Do not call me Sir|Philosophy behind ForumIAS

DM,
3.9k views

It's absolutely alright for things to go unnoticed and it's understandable considering your schedule. 😁


Well, that's unfortunate what they're doing. 


After a certain scale, such things happen as we come across as competitors. 


Competitions on such a plane are anyhow won by the most powerful in terms of money and network. Ofcourse with some rare exceptions. 


So, to survive, either we become a part of them, so that we no longer are the part of competition or

We keep thriving on the plane of innovation and creativity where there's no competition. 


In any case, this too shall pass, and wish you the best. 

TheProbe,
3.7k views
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