I think Israel and Palestine is one issue, where I'll always struggle with to take sides. I largely disagree with people try to paint this as a religious issue, when the history of the conflict tells us that its a deeply political issue. Calling it a religious issue, would assume that the Arab League and other Muslim states support the cause of Palestine, but actually when there was time to realise the Palestinian state, Arab League along with the Western powers backed out. With the recent development, we further see the waning away of the smoke screen of championing the Palestinian cause which the Arab states used.
Apart from the immediate cause of the revolt (the land rights issues surrounding the Haram-e-Sharif area), we have to keep in mind why it has to be this way. Israeli politics comes into play here. Its such an electorally and politically divided country that no party ever commands a complete majority. Likud party of Netanyahu is barely holding it together right now in a complicated coalition. As a result a lot of vote bank politics and coalition politics comes into play. Now, Netanyahu to resolve this problem, has begun openly courting the far right extremists in Israel (which by the way are in minority, though increasing). Pandering to the orthodox right involves costs. They want complete exclusion of the Palestinians from East Jerusalem which Israel has come to occupy. This is why we keep reading about the forced Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas of Jerusalem. This also explains why in 2018, Israel passed the Basic Law, declaring itself as Jewish nation state. Contrary to popular belief Israel was not formed as Jewish nation. It continues to have substantial Arab population (excluding the Palestinians). It would be also be a mistake here to generalize the entire Israeli population as ethno-nationalist, the well off cities, especially Tel Aviv, do not identify with such goals at all.
Coming to Hamas, its origin is equally troublesome. Hamas which originally formed as a sister group of Egypt based terrorist organisation Muslim Brotherhood, was actually propelled to power by support of Mossad (Israel's intel). And yes though its dubbed a terrorist organization, which practically it is, it is also a democratically elected govt. Now why would Israel support Hamas? Well, at that time the Palestinian cause was led by PLO. PLO was a secular organization, which relied on largely peaceful means of negotiation. Israel made a cold politically calculated call, and it supported the Islamic fundamentalists as a way to divide support for the PLO and to delegitimize and discredit the the Palestinian Liberation Movement in general (by painting them as extremists). That short sighted political move is now costing Israel big time, now that Hamas is a full blown militant group.
So, is Israel to be blamed for the mess that its in? Yes and no. This can be seen as a parallel to US and Taliban in Afghanistan. US supported the Mujahedeens in Afghan for it was way to get rid of the Communist control of Afghan under the Soviet, this was in the backdrop of Cold War. They supplied weapons, trained them to fight the Soviets. What followed that was the Taliban grew out of control, and eventually led to 9/11. Its kind of a similar case here. To blame US for the formation of Taliban is true, but to consider the whole 9/11 as an inside affair is a conspiracy theory. Similar is the case with Israel, this protracted asymmetric warfare will continue to stretch as long as it serves a political purpose, be it for the Palestinians, or Israel.
This morning, I came across a comment on Reddit, where some guy quoted his political science teacher on this conflict. He said (paraphrased): "If you read up on this issue for an hour, you'll be convinced the Israeli's are right. If you read for 10 hours, you'll be convinced the Palestinians are right. And if you read anymore, you won't be sure about who is right." This is the best way to put how deeply complex this issue is. If its painted as a yes or no, or simple religion against religion answer then, most often than not, we have chosen which side to defend (not saying that it is bad).
Thank you for writing such a good summary. :)
The religious conflict and/or political conflict dichotomy is very complex to say the least. It obviously serves some interests of both sides to paint it as a religious conflict.
What do you guys think about the fact that in the West, especially in the US, any attempt by a public figure to take a pro-Palestine stand or criticize the Israeli government (political) is immediately painted as anti-Semitic (religious)?
Now obviously if it were in in Germany, for example, the matter is justifiably sensitive and such a conclusion might even be fair - given the rise of neo Nazis, it is understandable for the Jewish community to be wary.
But otherwise in most cases, it looks like a political opinion is deliberately forced into religious garb, because anti-Semitism is an allegation that can scare anyone into dropping the stance. Often the outrage is louder from the Jewish diaspora than it is from Israel itself. So it looks like the threat of branding as an anti-Semite is being utilized effectively to serve the political purpose of suppressing support for Palestine.
Does anyone have a different view on this?
Yeah. Jewish people were there first. By the laws of chairs and tv remotes, Jewish have more rights over that land.
I would suggest people to read and re-read 'Castes in India: Their Mechanism, Genesis and Development' (available here:http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/txt_ambedkar_castes.html ), an amazing piece of scholarship by Babasaheb Ambedkar. A student of Goldenweiser and probably the first and only Indian to get trained in presence of Franz Boas at the Columbia University.
He was 25 at the time of the presentation of this paper.
Another great work of Dr. Ambedkar is "Pakistan or the partition of India".
https://swarajyamag.com/politics/long-read-why-upscs-archaic-selection-process-needs-a-complete-overhaul
UPSC selection process is the best possible selection process. It's probably the greatest and only exam worth cracking. The problem arises after the selection.
People are recruited directly at a level where they hardly get any grassroot experience. A little over 95 % of all the work in all the departments is done by group b officials. UPSC people basically get a promotion every 3-4 years without doing anything to deserve it.
This multi layer recruitment process was created by the Whites to keep high paying less work jobs purely white. They have reformed their own system since then. In fact all developed countries recruit bureaucrats at the same level and promote them according to performance. Singapore and few other countries became developed shortly after introducing this system.
Something Pratap Bhanu Mehta wrote in 2003.
I was going to write something but i found this online.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/08/american-astronomer-carl-sagan-hindu-cosmology-cosmos-universe/amp/
At the very onset, Carl cited the ancient Hindu sacred text of Rigveda and conceded, “The most sophisticated cosmological ideas came from Asia and particularly from India. Here, there is a tradition of sceptical questioning and unselfconscious humility before the great cosmic mysteries.”
There is also a YouTube video of him saying this.
I'd say Carl Sagan trumps PBM.
I was going to write something but i found this online.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/08/american-astronomer-carl-sagan-hindu-cosmology-cosmos-universe/amp/
At the very onset, Carl cited the ancient Hindu sacred text of Rigveda and conceded, “The most sophisticated cosmological ideas came from Asia and particularly from India. Here, there is a tradition of sceptical questioning and unselfconscious humility before the great cosmic mysteries.”
There is also a YouTube video of him saying this.
I'd say Carl Sagan trumps PBM.
There is no trumping. Both are correct. Competition thodi na hai. PBM is talking about one thing, Sagan about other.
Nah. He's just doing it because trashing majority religion is the "intellectual" thing to do. Just like people trash popular movies and praise boring ones like citizen kane on various internet forums to appear to be movie connoisseurs. No matter what anyone says Space Odyssey is not better than Infinity War.
Hinduism is the most chilled out religion of all. Whatever PBM said, Hindus don't actually care about that. He's making it sound like Hindus have an identity crisis.
While it saddens me to say that more than half the Hindu population rotate thalis with flaming stuff asking for money and other things. There's also the spiritual part, philosophical part, Yoga and Meditation. Upanishads for instance, don't say "this is absolute" unlike others, they encourage you to be free thinkers and use logic. Unfortunately this makes the spiritual texts less palatable to most people. It's a bit difficult to write what they say in just one comment and I'm too tired to write long coherent paragraphs.
Basically Hinduism is not one particular religion but many beliefs and philosophies combined. It's accepting of everyone. You already know that.
I was going to write something but i found this online.
https://www.opindia.com/2020/08/american-astronomer-carl-sagan-hindu-cosmology-cosmos-universe/amp/
At the very onset, Carl cited the ancient Hindu sacred text of Rigveda and conceded, “The most sophisticated cosmological ideas came from Asia and particularly from India. Here, there is a tradition of sceptical questioning and unselfconscious humility before the great cosmic mysteries.”
There is also a YouTube video of him saying this.
I'd say Carl Sagan trumps PBM.
There is no trumping. Both are correct. Competition thodi na hai. PBM is talking about one thing, Sagan about other.
Nah. He's just doing it because trashing majority religion is the "intellectual" thing to do. Just like people trash popular movies and praise boring ones like citizen kane on various internet forums to appear to be movie connoisseurs. No matter what anyone says Space Odyssey is not better than Infinity War.
Hinduism is the most chilled out religion of all. Whatever PBM said, Hindus don't actually care about that. He's making it sound like Hindus have an identity crisis.
While it saddens me to say that more than half the Hindu population rotate thalis with flaming stuff asking for money and other things. There's also the spiritual part, philosophical part, Yoga and Meditation. Upanishads for instance, don't say "this is absolute" unlike others, they encourage you to be free thinkers and use logic. Unfortunately this makes the spiritual texts less palatable to most people. It's a bit difficult to write what they say in just one comment and I'm too tired to write long coherent paragraphs.
Basically Hinduism is not one particular religion but many beliefs and philosophies combined. It's accepting of everyone. You already know that.
the identity crisis is real and i think the it stems from the transitional state of our country where we have adopted a modern secular democratic republic but feudalistic beliefs of the past are still lurking in our minds. We have yet not come to terms with the revolution unleashed by the constitution by giving equal citizenship in a country divided along caste and class,equal rights where graded privileges prevailed. And these things come out in the form of someone getting thrashed for keeping a moustache, or women getting murdered in name of honor, or when people trust pesudo science peddlers over vaccines. May be for a privileged person Hinduism may be the most chilled out thing, but for a large part the lived reality has been that of oppression, while woke people and hippies can bask in its spiritual part, intercaste marriages are still a paltry 6%. So dont try to whitewash and hide the dark underbelly of Hinduism. There are a lot of things in it that have never been as salient as in present times like yoga and meditation, but to have absolute opinions like its the greatest the bestest is dishonesty and self-delusion.
Dude I just said that Hinduism doesn't say "this is absolute, that is absolute". It basically encourages you to use your common sense to learn the true nature of existence.
Caste discrimination is real, nobody is denying that. I'm a General caste Fair man, unfortunately these things are a privilege here. I don't pretend to understand what others without those 2 privileges go through. You know very well that these backward characteristics are entrenched in all major religions, here in India and it will be a great dishonesty and disgrace if someone singles out one without addressing the others.
Hinduism is multifaceted and the spiritual part of it is worth your time. I like it because it deals with a subject that fascinates me the most. Science and other religions are sllpilent on it. Consciousness/ soul, whatever you want to call it.
My original response was about 2 things - identity crisis pe my personal opinion, and glorification of hinduism as something perfect. I agree with you perfectly when you say hinduism is changin gradually. I never contested that. My point is that we are still in a state of flux and during this period of change our multiple identities may come under stress and conflict with eash other leading to identity crisis.
I don’t know if pbm is a hypocrite or stooge of some political masters, that is not what I want to talk about besides uske article mujhe toh smjh nhi aate. My only defence for him was the defence of intellectual freedom to question , probe , scrutinise societal issues, religion etc
Your issue seems to be dont criticise x unless you criticise y and z as well. If that is how we are supposed to proceed then i am never saying rajma chawal sucks unless i also say chole chawal and dal chawal are also not perfect 😂
If you or pbm will try to portray my religion in bad light just because it has some problems,I have every right to compare my religion with other religions on that basis.
When Hindus vote as a group,pbm will cry why Hindus r getting polarised but When Muslims vote as a group,he will term it as victory of secularism.
People like him will cry about how sanskritisation of tribals is happening ,but will not utter a word when missionaries convert the poor tribals en masse , using their rice bag tactics.
So in above cases ,his focus is not on polarization or preserving tribal identify,rather on how to criticize Hindus .
Religion is not rajma chawal ,it is a way of life for us . For u maybe,it is just another commodity like shirt or rajma chawal🤣🤣,that is why u r having an identity crisis perhaps .
You have every right to criticise x ,y or z but if they are living together in a society ,you can't play pick nd choose.
do compare , but be cautious to benchmark with the best not the worst aspects, otherwise it may lead to complacency, stagnation and rigidities like the ones that had come to characterise hinduism during medieval period like caste, superstition, obscurantism.
And this double attitude of labelling groups in not exclusive to hindu- muslim debate, you see the same hypocrisy when backwards vote for any party in group and its called vote bank politics, while when 80% members of an upper caste vote for a party its called vikas.And you can always pick and choose if one group is so dominant that When you think about india the pictire that comes to mind is not of a christian going to church but that do hindu playing holi diwali.
80%of higher caste people voting for a lowet caste PM alone should tell you something.
Caste, superstition and other backwardness should be addressed for all the religions equally and immediately. But "intellectualism" in India is interpreted as trashing Hinduism. Putting down Hindus and then keep kicking them. This practice in itself is equally backwards and medieval.
If you want to call yourself intellectual, you should be able to address all the backwardness in society without sounding like a biased elitist.
Ambedkar did it, why can't modern day wannabe intellectuals.
I was hoping to not say this because intolerant intellectual are very intolerant of anything criticizing the religion of peace. Also because a few days back i saw a Muslim auto driver go out of his way to help a hindu Covid+ pregnant lady. I've seen a lot of examples of Muslims being more helpful than Hindus.
You probably live in a mostly Hindu state to think of India as Holi and diwali. But in states like kerala, telangana, TN, UP, Bihar, Assam, WB, etc. The picture of India seems a bit different. Crowded Mosque roads on fridays, sea of skull caps and 4 AM wake up call are the norm.
What I mean to say is that the second largest minority is large enough in most state for their backwardness to be of concern to everyone. What Ambedkar said about them in this book http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/index.html#contents still holds true. They still don't believe in real science, just the stuff taught in madatsas. I'm traveling in a train right now. 6 out of 8 people in the cabin and side are Muslims and only I am wearing a mask. May be RSS taught them pseudo science too. Or may be they still believe in the infallibility of very hard sciences mentioned in that book of theirs. They still torture animals because it's halal. What's to say they won't follow the book and try to turn darul harb into darul islam by waging something mentioned in the same book.
Last time partition happened was because they were 23% and religion was more important to them than nation. It still is more so for the educated people working in private sector and even government.
I'm sorry if it sounds rude but by not acknowledging and addressing the backwardness of largest minority, pseudo intellectuals are further deepening the already deep divisions between the two communities.
I was hoping to not say this because intolerant intellectual are very intolerant of anything criticizing the religion of peace. Also because a few days back i saw a Muslim auto driver go out of his way to help a hindu Covid+ pregnant lady. I've seen a lot of examples of Muslims being more helpful than Hindus.
You probably live in a mostly Hindu state to think of India as Holi and diwali. But in states like kerala, telangana, TN, UP, Bihar, Assam, WB, etc. The picture of India seems a bit different. Crowded Mosque roads on fridays, sea of skull caps and 4 AM wake up call are the norm.
What I mean to say is that the second largest minority is large enough in most state for their backwardness to be of concern to everyone. What Ambedkar said about them in this book http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/index.html#contents still holds true. They still don't believe in real science, just the stuff taught in madatsas. I'm traveling in a train right now. 6 out of 8 people in the cabin and side are Muslims and only I am wearing a mask. May be RSS taught them pseudo science too. Or may be they still believe in the infallibility of very hard sciences mentioned in that book of theirs. They still torture animals because it's halal. What's to say they won't follow the book and try to turn darul harb into darul islam by waging something mentioned in the same book.
Last time partition happened was because they were 23% and religion was more important to them than nation. It still is more so for the educated people working in private sector and even government.
I'm sorry if it sounds rude but by not acknowledging and addressing the backwardness of largest minority, pseudo intellectuals are further deepening the already deep divisions between the two communities.
Narrow reading+ Biased judgements+ Super arrogance= Modern day bigot.
Mr. Whoever you are, if you understood even 1% of what this country is you wouldn't have made such stupid remarks.
You seem to be too interested to quote Ambedkar, Why aren't you bothered about what that man lived for? People like you who quote Ambedkar and ignore the constitution in the same breathe are the biggest misfortunes of this country today.
All you 'observations ' are irritating so better keep it to yourself. Read more and talk less, specially on things you have no idea about.
Knew I was going to be lynched and ostracized the moment I hit submit. So let me apologize for my misguided notions. I was thrown off by empirical evidences. I was clearly wrong.
More muslims leads to a more modern and democratic society, more rights to minorities and women. More socialism leads to more prosperity. Hinduism clearly is the worst religion and all the terror organizations have based their propaganda on Hinduism. We must end Hinduism at once.
» hide previous quotesMy original response was about 2 things - identity crisis pe my personal opinion, and glorification of hinduism as something perfect. I agree with you perfectly when you say hinduism is changin gradually. I never contested that. My point is that we are still in a state of flux and during this period of change our multiple identities may come under stress and conflict with eash other leading to identity crisis.
I don’t know if pbm is a hypocrite or stooge of some political masters, that is not what I want to talk about besides uske article mujhe toh smjh nhi aate. My only defence for him was the defence of intellectual freedom to question , probe , scrutinise societal issues, religion etc
Your issue seems to be dont criticise x unless you criticise y and z as well. If that is how we are supposed to proceed then i am never saying rajma chawal sucks unless i also say chole chawal and dal chawal are also not perfect 😂
If you or pbm will try to portray my religion in bad light just because it has some problems,I have every right to compare my religion with other religions on that basis.
When Hindus vote as a group,pbm will cry why Hindus r getting polarised but When Muslims vote as a group,he will term it as victory of secularism.
People like him will cry about how sanskritisation of tribals is happening ,but will not utter a word when missionaries convert the poor tribals en masse , using their rice bag tactics.
So in above cases ,his focus is not on polarization or preserving tribal identify,rather on how to criticize Hindus .
Religion is not rajma chawal ,it is a way of life for us . For u maybe,it is just another commodity like shirt or rajma chawal🤣🤣,that is why u r having an identity crisis perhaps .
You have every right to criticise x ,y or z but if they are living together in a society ,you can't play pick nd choose.
do compare , but be cautious to benchmark with the best not the worst aspects, otherwise it may lead to complacency, stagnation and rigidities like the ones that had come to characterise hinduism during medieval period like caste, superstition, obscurantism.
And this double attitude of labelling groups in not exclusive to hindu- muslim debate, you see the same hypocrisy when backwards vote for any party in group and its called vote bank politics, while when 80% members of an upper caste vote for a party its called vikas.And you can always pick and choose if one group is so dominant that When you think about india the pictire that comes to mind is not of a christian going to church but that do hindu playing holi diwali.80%of higher caste people voting for a lowet caste PM alone should tell you something.
Caste, superstition and other backwardness should be addressed for all the religions equally and immediately. But "intellectualism" in India is interpreted as trashing Hinduism. Putting down Hindus and then keep kicking them. This practice in itself is equally backwards and medieval.
If you want to call yourself intellectual, you should be able to address all the backwardness in society without sounding like a biased elitist.
Ambedkar did it, why can't modern day wannabe intellectuals.
I was hoping to not say this because intolerant intellectual are very intolerant of anything criticizing the religion of peace. Also because a few days back i saw a Muslim auto driver go out of his way to help a hindu Covid+ pregnant lady. I've seen a lot of examples of Muslims being more helpful than Hindus.
You probably live in a mostly Hindu state to think of India as Holi and diwali. But in states like kerala, telangana, TN, UP, Bihar, Assam, WB, etc. The picture of India seems a bit different. Crowded Mosque roads on fridays, sea of skull caps and 4 AM wake up call are the norm.
What I mean to say is that the second largest minority is large enough in most state for their backwardness to be of concern to everyone. What Ambedkar said about them in this book http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/index.html#contents still holds true. They still don't believe in real science, just the stuff taught in madatsas. I'm traveling in a train right now. 6 out of 8 people in the cabin and side are Muslims and only I am wearing a mask. May be RSS taught them pseudo science too. Or may be they still believe in the infallibility of very hard sciences mentioned in that book of theirs. They still torture animals because it's halal. What's to say they won't follow the book and try to turn darul harb into darul islam by waging something mentioned in the same book.
Last time partition happened was because they were 23% and religion was more important to them than nation. It still is more so for the educated people working in private sector and even government.
I'm sorry if it sounds rude but by not acknowledging and addressing the backwardness of largest minority, pseudo intellectuals are further deepening the already deep divisions between the two communities.
thank you very mcuh for elevating my status from an aspirant to intellectual. I didnt know expressing opinion here is synonymous to intellectualism. If you purpose is to improve their socio economic conditions, go ahead and ask the govt to raise the budget of education to 4%, provide scholarship for foreign education, make it mandatory for top educational institutions to have a certain level of diversity in campuses, do everything to find gems like kalam and support them. I dont have any objection to such noble intentions. You have my full support.
I dont know what these terms darul islam etc means, but if its a call for one muslim suprastate, then its a flawed concept - sounds good, doesnt work . I dont see state as a concept for political oganisation being replaced by any other concept in foreseeable future. Arguable asian heartland and gulf are all muslim nations yet the region continues to be the most restive and divided. Bngladesh is a great example of how same religion doesnt mean same interests, India -nepal realtion is also good example. Depsite being majority hindu nations, the relationship has been very difficult to manage.
Or bhai i really feel sad that despite being in majority, despite an apparently pro-hindu government in power, you feel insecure and spend restless nights worrying about a muslim takeover, worrying abut conspiracies by pesudo intellectuals.
I was also not hoping to say this but through your comments you ahve only made the case stronger for that pbm quote. You first said hinduism is the coolest(sense of superiority), then hindus are being put down and being kicked (sense of harm and a sense of weakness). Yhi paradoxical mixtre of sentiment ki to baat kar rha hai wo
and i wont reply on this topic anymore mene jawab de diya hai
Yeah, Yeh baat toh hai when you have pro-hindu govt , dar kis baat ka hai? Abhi bhi dar lag rha toh socho agar congress ya koi aur aagya toh kya karengen?
@whatonly respect for you! for standing against those who are challenging the society we want, for destroying our country with these ideas.
I'm sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my purpose initially. I just wanted to have a conversation about why trashing Hinduism is intellectualism and talking about backwardness of other religions is hate. You have successfully silenced me, i won't be making any comments henceforth. But I want you folks to think, why owaisi talks about killing Hindus and wins elections, why yogi talks about killing muslims and wins elections?
Since we are such a tolerant community. Or may be what i said about tolerant community being very intolerant of any rational criticism of islam was right.
Bye.
