Out with PSIR optional. 2nd attempt, first mains.
Now I am 28 yrs old and contemplating 2 choices. One is to attempt this year again, or to may be take up a job and attempt in 2022. But to take that decision i need clarity on 2 things--
1. How realistically possible is to improve my overall mains mark by "at least" 60 marks vis-a-vis last attempt (assuming I am behind cutoff by 20marks and a cushion of 40 is needed to clear the final hurdle, as a bare minimum) in the 90 odd days between prelims and mains. I know that the main improvement will be required in answer writing and not so much in content, as I had hardly written 6 papers, and none for optionals. I ask this as the time after mains hasn't been productive for me, and now it is already time to start prelims prep. So any value addition/improvement in answer will have to be done in the period between prelims and mains 2021, especially for PSIR, which I am quite sure would have been the culprit this time.
2. Most successful candidates seem to follow a pattern of 'prelims fail and clearing in next immediate attempt', "interview fail and clearing in next immediate attempt". Can anyone give examples of topper videos/strategies of those with "mains fail and clearing in next immediate attempt",since I can't find any, and coz I am afraid that if I enter next cycle without adding much value (due to paucity of time), I may get stuck at mains stage forever.
I hope@Neyawnor others forum members can throw some light on this.
Rahul s sankanur rank 17 2018. But he had more time in hand after failing mains.
Could you guys please suggest a cost efficient printer that I can use for online tests. Which one do you use? I am willing to spend ~10k.
hp 1020 plus. using since 2 years. no issue whatsoever. printed more than 7k pages.
cons- older model, overpriced, low availability, black n white, no auto duplex(though manual works fine)
pros- efficient, workhorse, high quality, low maintenance, brand, easy repair, easy and cheap refill, most printing shops swear by it, durability, simplicity
buy it without a second thought. dont waste time pondering over this vs epson vs canon. not much difference. youre welcome.
frankly as an aspirant one shouldnt be fussy about colour. ink tanks arent great if u r planning on high yield/large volume. plus any local photocopy shop can refill your cartridge for 1020 laserjet for under rs 100. gets you about 1500 pages per refill. more economical.
@NOLEisGOAT Bro what's print speed per minute?
14
frankly as an aspirant one shouldnt be fussy about colour. ink tanks arent great if u r planning on high yield/large volume. plus any local photocopy shop can refill your cartridge for 1020 laserjet for under rs 100. gets you about 1500 pages per refill. more economical.
@Steph_Curry
oh sorry. i confused inkjet with inktank. i think the epson inktank advised above is a good option. better than 1020 plus also. but just be sure to maintain it properly. 1020 doesnt require any maintenance though. the epon is much faster with much higher yield. and cheaper refill.
@NOLEisGOAT Too early to say that. But the gap between last interview and prelims was anyway very less.
but interview cant technically overshoot the next cycle pre can it? pre will have to be postponed i think
Where are the insiders?
@LionKing2021 @Yo_Yo_Choti_Singh any news on postponement of pre?
Epfo might happen on two of the following dates - 4th July or 29 August assuming that CSE pre happens as per scheduled date. In the event of CSE being postponed then EPFO will be conducted on 4th of July and CSE on 29 August. These two dates are reserved by Upsc for one day examinations. Another date reserved by Upsc is of 12th of October.
was last years rescheduling to october based on similar logic though? they dont need to follow calendar restrictions if entire timeline is anyways disrupted. no?
what are you guys doing these days? i might sound childish but this whole corona induced uncertainty is driving me insane. was happily preparing for intv. now with dates postponed, dont know how to move ahead. losing all interest in this exam. wish i had a real job and contributed to my family's finances in these crunch times.
last year was horrified to hear stories of suffering. but was certain that with precaution things would pan out fine for me. and they did to an extent. cleared pre and mains. but this 2nd wave is a step into reality. a rude shock. am in delhi. in my very own flat of 8 families, 3 have tested positive this time. family members of friends have passed away. situation is grim. the thought that it could be our turn any moment haunts me every day. aging parents and a dependent son in a corona world. title of a horror movie. cant imagine going through this suffering.
in cities we are accustomed to the idea that value of human life is very insignificant. especially if you are from a working class family. but the pandemic has pushed this notion to different level. bodies being transported like trash. families begging to see the dead, one last time. overcrowded hospitals. its nothing short of an apocalypse. forgive me for painting a cynical and pessimistic picture. but truth must be understood to prepare ourselves for what may be inevitable for some unlucky souls in the coming days.
prep wise, study hours are approaching zero. anxiety at peak. insomnia. trying to reconcile mind to this new reality, a living nightmare, with my aspiration and dream of civil service. havent stepped out in months. still trying to stay positive. lets keep our thoughts and prayers with those families that are losing their bread earners and loved ones. the pain is unimaginable. lets support warriors, civil society, media and all govt functionaries irrespective of ideology in this collective fight for survival. the constant bickering and blame game by parties and media is salt on the wound. we must rise above all this. may god help us all.
I really want to believe UPSC won't conduct the Prelims on June 27th. I really do, but at the same time i'm scared that it's just an attempt by myself to rationalize slacking off.
.
"Postponement of NEET-PG for at least 4 months: Considering the current situation in the wake of resurgence of COVID – 19, NEET (PG) – 2021 has been postponed. This Exam will not be held before 31st August 2021. At least one-month time will be given after the announcement of the Examination before it is conducted."
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1715667
PS: But Govt also intends to use NEET PG aspirants services for COVID duties for a minimum 100 days
makes sense. good idea to utilise know how. cant say the same for upsc aspirants though. if cse is postponed it would mainly have to do with the scale of the exam and the fact that its date is close to the expected peak period.
Another indicator that pre will be postponed. Hope upsc comes out with a statement at the earliest. Suspense is only making things worse. Koi insider info hai to batao bhai?@LionKing2021
Opened telegram account just to check updates from kaptaan saab. Read the pinned messages. Overarching feeling is that pre will be postponed. If it isnt, we wont be updated.
Regarding prelims:
Heard Sept/Oct from one friend. (Tried to confirm this)
While confirming
From the most credible I got this:
No meeting whatsoever held in upsc regarding prelims 2021.
Any decision regarding prelims 21 will be taken only in May end. If before that he will inform me.
Best wishes,
Kaptaan 🙏🏼
heres the link: https://t.me/joinchat/XuVuBrBE2x01MWM9
nole has a better head to head against both.
I hope people realise that deleted comments aren't that deleted
i dont believe you
@Rambo93 @Patootie @Usain_bolt
- regarding that insider info, I'm not denying that exam won't postpone. Few weeks ago someone mentioned that 4th oct being reserve date of 2020 and similarly for 2021. This seemed pretty genuine too me.
Honestly, while reading this info it felt a bit made up. That's why I mentioned. I'm still waiting for Kaptaan to speak up _/\_
I too felt his info on both counts appears to be a mix of fact and fiction. Its upto us to believe it or discard it as bs. Though i agreed with the logic, the meeting thing seemed bs. Let ppl believe what they want to.
We should not doubt people for nothing, specially when somebody is trying to think in larger community intrest.
I am saying this because last year also there was a guy called Krantikari and he was predicting things. People were mocking him, but his predictions were spot on! After that the same people were congratulating him also. I didn't say anything, but I felt bad for that guy.
Shouldnt it be the other way round though on social media? as a thumb rule one shouldnt trust an anonymous handle for nothing. Just saying. Ofcourse mocking isnt appropriate either.
I too felt his info on both counts appears to be a mix of fact and fiction. Its upto us to believe it or discard it as bs. Though i agreed with the logic, the meeting thing seemed bs. Let ppl believe what they want to.
Ignore the sceptic :P
the rich of today have walked on the heads of many a poor in the past to be where they are. and they continue to do so. such evil. such lack of conscience. nirav malya ka naam to sabhi ne suna hoga. ab ek kalra bhi add kar lo. anek kalra is desh k har kaune me immoral dalali kar k apna dhan ikattha krte hai. sochne wali baat hai inse nipta kaise jaye jinke sar par satta walon ka haath hamesha rhta h?
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/oxygen-racket-oxygen-concentrators-seized-khan-market-scam-7306440/
Opened up forum and just finished reading the entire discussion on caste and gender in films. Loved reading every single word. Didnt agree with a lot of what was said on both sides. But am left with a smile thinking about the maturity with which we can navigate even sensitive issues like caste and gender here on forum. Keeping it respectable. Thats why I keep coming back here. Always learning something new. Just reading without commenting has become a great learning tool here. Aspirants on telegram cant even imagine doing something remotely similar.
And my joy was shortlived :P
I vividly remember the day. Had it not been for the World Cup final, it would have been yet another random day preparing for the JEE. Back in 2011, I almost always studied alone, usually talking in my head. I watched the game, but it was just'Yay, we won the WC'for me. I had no one to celebrate the victory with.
Come to think of social life, it is weird that most of us have remained divorced from it for a good number of our youth years. In particular, those who did JEE prep earlier and now this! I think our life has not even begun in the real sense of 'living a life.' Kudos to those who have been able to maintain the balance in their lives. I most certainly haven't been able to do so.
I tend to rationalize the isolation and social sacrifice thing as being a unique life story for myself. my personal struggle for something higher. that it has helped open my eyes to a reality which i would otherwise be unaware of in my sweet ignorance. which is true to an extent. had i lived the "normal" life i would not be the master of my ship, but only a passenger in the ferry. but ive come to realise its more of a romanticization of loneliness. of escapism. it does tend to squeeze out ones youth. years which will never return. scary. but lets hope alls well that ends well? that hindsight provides us a better picture in the future, one which we cannot see right now?
Would be really interested in your comments on this guys.
(Larger context- Indias global image: how the world sees india should define how india sees the world)I believe it is only on account of cultural differences.
I like curry, I do like roaming around without t shirt while in farms back in village
This is not something that we should hide or feel ashamed. There are bigger things to worry when dealing with Japanesse, the foremost among them is not being punctual and I have personally felt humiliation many a times on this account, they often show watch as a gesture : )
cultural differences yes. but i just felt the vlogger made some relevant points and raised genuine concerns. especially considering he would have to face direct brunt of the stereotyping unlike us. personally i felt it was in poor taste. but honestly im not surprised. as much as we admire the japanese or other great powers, i feel we should be cautious about how they, as a nation, view us. nobody is our 'friend'. especially not if they look down upon us in this way. i may be overthinking but i feel east asians dont see india/indians in good light. thats what i have gathered from several hours of youtube vlogs :P
A question always comes to mind and today I would like to ask.
@NOLEisGOAT and@AzadHindFauz, since you guys prepared for JEE as well, does the prior experience of preparing for a competitive exam helps in UPSC. If yes, to what extent?Or, since you guys already had hustled so much for 1-2 years in isolation, does going back to a similar experience is harder due to mental fatigue?
Others who also prepared for any competitive exam earlier, please share your experiences as well. :)
it does to an extent. for me it gave clarity about my study habits. that coaching wouldnt click for me. group vs alone. or my optimum hours etc. but that can be realised by anyone within a couple of months of serious study i feel. as for isolation, i think in jee years i wasnt isolated per se as i had fellow coaching guys working all day long alongside me.
fatigue may arise from competitive pressure but never from the studying itself. atleast in the first or second attempt. upsc subjects are a breath of fresh air for any engineering graduate i feel. it is a welcome change. after 4 mentally challenging years to come here? barring the competition pressure, its desirable. as for competition, many do like the adrenaline rush. but i personally am just pushing along frankly.
I need some advice. I always wanted to know how do you guys mentally prepare for things beyond your control and not be anxious?To give you an example, I found my bench in the essay paper this year to be very shaky. Being the 1st paper, I kinda went blank for 5-10 minutes thinking how am I going to write 9 papers on this! This definitely cost me some marks. Another example is when someone switched a noisy pedestal fan in prelims this year right behind me and despite my pleadings, didn't budge. 3-4 minutes lost there as well.Long story short, how do I calm my mind in such situations? I've been a perfectionist all my life and any slight tweaking in the surroundings throws me off. I want to change this ASAP! Hope this made sense! :pAny suggestions are welcomed.@SergioRamos @whatonly @Patootie @Villanelle @Sherkhan1428 @NOLEisGOAT and others.
thanks for putting the question out there. now ill benefit from reading the answers as well :)
https://www.civilsdaily.com/ias-prelims-2021-to-be-postponed-reconquer-prelims-2021-amidst-pandemic/
CIVILSDAILY are openly claiming prelims Sureshot postponed and a notification eminent soon. They are also launching a new test series for the postponed period.
Is this the Vajiram moment of 2020??
Is this really true? Every other insider is saying that no meeting has been held in UPSC.
But a shubhchintak shared detailed info of a meeting here on forum recently. Prashant kishore of forum. Was he making it up? What a shocker! Im stunned :P
Would be really interested in your comments on this guys.
(Larger context- Indias global image: how the world sees india should define how india sees the world)I believe it is only on account of cultural differences.
I like curry, I do like roaming around without t shirt while in farms back in village
This is not something that we should hide or feel ashamed. There are bigger things to worry when dealing with Japanesse, the foremost among them is not being punctual and I have personally felt humiliation many a times on this account, they often show watch as a gesture : )
cultural differences yes. but i just felt the vlogger made some relevant points and raised genuine concerns. especially considering he would have to face direct brunt of the stereotyping unlike us. personally i felt it was in poor taste. but honestly im not surprised. as much as we admire the japanese or other great powers, i feel we should be cautious about how they, as a nation, view us. nobody is our 'friend'. especially not if they look down upon us in this way. i may be overthinking but i feel east asians dont see india/indians in good light. thats what i have gathered from several hours of youtube vlogs :P
Yes stereotyping is bad, I am so much sorry for Japanesse :D
I found the video more of clickbait kind of, and accordingly content was prepared.
Indians there could help them realise the true spirit of India through their deeds
This fellow in video forgot the doctrine of Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam and speaking stuffs like his tax money is gift to old age pensioners. That was bad aspect.
East Asians, I am not sure how they look us, but there are so many other big nations playing a role out there, that India’s contribution is definitely marginalised
Spoken like the true shoulder angel. Thats a real positive and constructive way of looking at it. I agree. But i would still give the benefit of doubt to the vlogger because he has skin in the game. I was not commenting on his presentation of facts. He was being diarespectful and paranoid. Im just interested in the worst case scenario. How does India deal with a negative image? We have problems at home no doubt. But mockery in the guise of freedom of expression will have more harm in the long run. We must be prepared is all im saying.
I think the time is ripe for an oft repeated IIT joke.How do you tell if someone went to an IIT?Don’t worry, they’ll tell you. :PPeople will tell they went to iit.But won't tell that they got into it with 1 lakh rank(if you know what i mean) when I missed it despite getting 10678 rank.
Similarly people advised me last year about writing mains answer because they had got 750s rank.When marks came I had more marks than them,but I did'nt get interview call(if you know what I mean)
Anyways,frustration of abhilash in episode 5 sitting on that tea shop was genuine.Many feel the same way.
If you know what I mean.Anyways there is no point in discussing things I can't change.Best of luck to all of us.
1 thing I realized here is that people will discuss very high intelluctual things.Tell you that they xyz rank or have done pqr things.They put you down.
But when you do background check you come to know you knew much more than them,had better marks than them.
Thanks and bye.Don't curse me now.Had I known this gyaan some 2 months back I would have been much more calm now.
It was eye opening 2 months here.
Thanks @Noleisgoat for all you have done.
Peace and amen
Mate congrats on your interview call and all, but by “if you know what I mean”, you are putting down the achievements of reserved candidates. You are basically doing what you accuse others of doing. Failure is a tough pill to swallow, but there are a great number of lessons for you if you manage to swallow it with grace.
In his defence he was going after those who flaunt their achievement after getting worse ranks. not reservations per se. i have to second the observation. have seen several ppl with much worse ranks getting in and advertising themselves as youngest ias youngest ips. i dont share the same feelings though. also i dont think he was belittling anyones experience or achievement. perhaps the bitterness, justified or otherwise, did come through his words there. it is a shared experience of many in the open category. we need to empathise with this pov as well. it is the reality of many. lets respect that.
@Villanelle @whatonly @Patootie
The point on empathising was to come to a common ground. I personally feel the bitterness among UR though not desirable or moral or even legal, is justified. As for my own self, i think you guys gave me a lot to think. Perhaps its my own camouflaged bitterness as well that helps me empathise with sunny. I would like to think thats not the case as my views and experience are different from his. And I respect your views on this. But i would still encourage you, at the cost of sounding preachy, to empathise. Maybe see it from his pov. He is hurt deep down by the current system. It is the reality of many.
People will tell they went to iit.But won't tell that they got into it with 1 lakh rank(if you know what i mean) when I missed it despite getting 10678 rank(those days new IITs hav'nt come up in such huge numbers as they r today)
They will tell you they went to IIM Ahmedabad but wont tell they got there with 82 percentile.While I had to contend with IIM Lucknow,Indore and Kozhikode despite a 99.5 percentile(if you know what I mean).
Similarly people advised me last year about writing mains answer because they had got 750s rank.When marks came I had more marks than them,but I did'nt get interview call(if you know what I mean)
Anyways,frustration of abhilash in episode 5 sitting on that tea shop was genuine.Many feel the same way.
If you know what I mean.Anyways there is no point in discussing things I can't change.Best of luck to all of us.
1 thing I realized here is that people will discuss very high intelluctual things.Tell you that they xyz rank or have done pqr things.They put you down.
But when you do background check you come to know you knew much more than them,had better marks than them.
Thanks and bye.Don't curse me now.Had I known this gyaan some 2 months back I would have been much more calm now.
It was eye opening 2 months here.
Thanks @Noleisgoat for all you have done.
Peace and amen
Hi Sunny,
I am sorry to bring this up but can't help it. I had messaged you after the Mains result were out to know whether you had made it or not. Like many Forum peeps, I too was worried about your result and your well being, given that your comments here prior to the results were quite depressing and sad. (As rightly pointed out by@SergioRamos ) You reverted back next day and informed that you have made it. I was so happy bro.
However, you added in the same reply that you had attempted suicide a few days back and have come back from hospital bed. Those words sank my heart. I did feel helpless. All I did was write a few words of comfort and had asked you to take care.
All I want to say is please don't waste your time in complaining and whining about how UPSC has taken away life out of you. You are a talented, hard working, ambitious person. Why to waste energy and time in looking down upon fellow humans?
Please focus on bringing positivity and cheerfulness in your life, regardless of the circumstances you find yourself in. I'm afraid the negativity that you have unfortunately accumulated over the years might reflect in the Personality Test and affect your scores. Please don't let that happen.
Everyone on the Forum wants you to succeed and contribute to our nation constructively. Sorry if my words sounded harsh. Take care of yourself. Peace out. 🤘
What prevented you from putting this as a personal message? Esp considering you had to bring up his mental wellbeing?
@NOLEisGOAT Maybe it is justified. But should our first instinct be to take a dig at the reserved candidates? Or to consider for a second, why did it had to be this way? Why is our society, our institutions so discriminatory? Why no anger against politicians who instead of working for the actual upliftment of such communities resort to last minute pre-poll announcements and sheer tokenism? Also, just getting a seat at IIT is not winning at life. Even in urban areas, its not the case that there isn't any caste based discrimination - it happens daily, just in a "veiled" fashion.
My simple point again being the thought process you have is alien to those who have had bitter personal experiences regarding reservation. How do we make them see what you see when we are ourselves blind to their plight, perceived or real?
@NOLEisGOAT Btw how much time have you followed that Rom Rom Ji vlog ??
just that video. maybe a couple more. few years back. wasnt impressed i guess. so didnt follow. why?
The message clearly says he told him over a PM. The guy knows exactly what he did. He was hurt by his comments so he decided to bring up something which would hurt him, except he decided to project the comment as something coming from a well-wisher.
As you can read in this screenshot, he himself had commented about the "personal" incident openly on the forum one month back.
Bhai perhaps thats because he didnt have anyone else to confide in? and why are you projecting it like he did something wrong? in the worst case he was seeking attention. even so are we so consumed in ourselves that we cant be sensitive to other peoples suffering? whether we like them or not? plus lets not be naive. by bringing it up now, during the heated rebuttal, you were indirectly saying "this guy has a history of depression and negative ideas. dont take him seriously. hes not mentally stable". passive aggressive. even when your side of the argument has valid points to counter him easily. if you really did care you would have sent a personal mail, rather than sugarcoat your hate as genuine concern.
@NOLEisGOAT I really do want to understand and empathize. All our discussion about the social, historical, political dimensions of the issue is going to be useless if people are feeling angry and hurt, because no one can discuss things rationally in that state. The emotional wounds, both perceived and real, have to be healed first. Or at least acknowledged. And that can't be done if someone feels like they aren't heard and understood.
I find this "just saying what I feel, don't pounce on me" or "if you know what i mean" variety of comments very irritating, but now I'm seeing that it comes from a very real sense of feeling boxed into a corner. In some spaces there is no place for people to honestly express their feelings of hurt and bitterness, as we (myself included) may have ended up demonstrating here. That's why it comes out in veiled ways. If we don't like the veil, it's up to us to be willing to engage sincerely with what's behind it. And that requires some maturity on our part - genuinely trying to understand someone's bitterness, even if I feel it is not justified, will only help me grow as a person. It is not the equivalent of accepting an anti-reservation stance. There has to be space for us to engage with each other as humans even while we disagree politically.
@SunnyParashar some responses to your comment got a bit too personal, I want to apologize for my part in it. I hope some other time we can have a sensitive and sincere discussion.
On the day of mains result, I was hurting because I didn't get in and went for a walk, I met an acquaintance on the way who happens to be from SC category, she was delighted on her mains success and rightfully so but then she went on for about 5 mins on how noone from her library managed to clear mains except her and how first attempt students are flocking her for tips and she was so so smug about the fact that only she qualified. I never had any bitterness about reservations prior to that but that day I felt angry and jealous of her because she comes from a much better socio economic background than me but still she had to score way lesser than me for the exact same exam with even more resources than I could afford. So, more often than not the anger of UR category students isn't really towards the whole community but it's the personal experiences and severe frustration of extremely high competition for UR seats where not so genius students like me feel like it's unattainable.
You know, experiences like these have to be shared and welcomed. Stories from all sides need to be heard and shared to have a comprehensive overview of things and not get stuck in echo chambers. You wrote your heart out openly and put up the issue you faced with the aspects where the system seems to fail. We can have dialogues and discussions nicely. I am happy that you did not curse or taunt and chose a much nicer way. Cheers! :)
to me tabse kya kh rha tha :P :D
plus i vehemently disagree with some of your views on reservation and your fears- ki UR blow up the 5% non deserving ones to bring down the whole system. but im all ears. and respect and enjoy the arguments a lot.
@Arsene thank you so much for pointing out the problem with that scene. It was very underhanded and cheap of tvf to attack people with disabilities in their attempt to bring up reservation.
The fact that it got entirely ignored in our discussion yesterday also points to the lack of awareness among us here. I have seen many disparaging comments about quotas under youtube videos of candidates with disabilities who clear the exam. Thank you for bringing it up.
l kind of started liking ghuri because of that scene. felt bad for him. that he wasnt at fault and bore the brunt of abhis frustration. despite trying to lighten up the mood for his friend. but thats purely from a cinematic storyline pov. thanks to the social reality audit weve had, even im beginning to see it was wrong. still, maybe tvf is just trying to showcase stereotypes that exist in reality, without commenting on the good or bad of it? that someone like ghuri is not spared even by a friend? remember ghuri is also among the lead and at no point did they make it expilict that ghuri was 'disabled'. maybe consciously for them theres more to his character arc than his physical shortfall? ill give them the benefit of doubt.
one thought experiment. suppose there was an island which was inhabited by 4 tribes having equal population and there was no discrimination, no societal disabilities imposed on anyone on the basis of their membesrhip of a tribe . Yet it was found that 1 tribe was prospering and claiming a larger share of the resources, say 70% , while other 3 had to make do with whatever crumbs were left. Here the successful tribe was not doing anything wrong, it survived on its merit alone, and lived by the sweat of their brow.
Would affirmative action be warranted in such a scenario?
ignore if doesnt make sense
*assuming prosperity=survival
it would create an island of unequals, the left behind tribes would band together/strengthen in numbers, negotiate/threaten prosperous tribe to a contract of social justice/equitable distribution, based on stronger tribes reaction there could be war/endgame or peace based on concession
is affirmative action warranted? not as a means of social justice alone maybe but as a form of negotiation for peace. Also it is hard to not account for other variables- ex values of the tribes- a left behind tribe may not want to prosper by hand-wringing. Assuming all players are rational, the negotiated peace with affirmative action would seem most probable.
as for right-wrong/justice, it is situational not absolute. within the pact/negotiation there would be rationalisation of redistribution of wealth. ex- god has made us equals/ your liberty is guaranteed only with equality/democratic function etc. though to us/outsider it would seem unjust/unfair within the system it would be rationalised as effective justice- one ushering in peaceful civilisation.
